r/mormon

TLDR: Elder Holland was friends with John Dehlin and protected him, and as soon as he died, the church sued Dehlin.

Apparently Jeffery R holland was friends with Dehlin. I know that Dehlin had mentioned this a few times, but it was also mentioned by the Salt Lake Tribune and Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson when discussing the circumstances that led to the dismissal of Peterson from the Maxwell Institute at BYU in 2012.

Back then, Peterson was about to publish a hit piece against Dehlin, but a general authority 70 intervened and stopped the presses and then BYU fired Peterson from the Maxwell Institute. Of course this could not have happened without Holland’s blessing, knowing how close he was to BYU.

So it appears that Elder Holland protected Dehlin and discouraged the church from taking any action against him for the last 20 years. This explains the timing of the suit coming shortly after Holland‘s passing.

It has nothing to do with the content of the podcast they say.

TBMs will be listening to and devouring MormonStories and being fed the algorithm.

My guess is in 2 - 4 months we will see a wave of exmo PIMOs discussing how this announcement that the church is sueing some podcast was what lead them out of the church.

Just so they can bully someone.

Thanks TCOJCOLDS for spreading the MormonStories name to millions of TBMs and nevermos.

Plus they have awakened the Exmos who will keep MormonStories going stronger than ever.

Thank you TCOJCOLDS!

When I first encountered "Mormon Stories" on YouTube, I saw thumbnails like "Mormon Bishop Loses Faith", "My Temple Experience Broke Me" etc. I took this to mean that this podcast was absolutely antithetical to my religious beliefs, and John Dehlin was ruining church members. THEN I had a family member interview with him (full disclosure, their interview took place outside of "Mormon Stories" and the experience itself was not church related), and I became certain. This family member has struggled with mental health in such a way that it is still difficult to discern their true experiences from false. John Dehlin's willingness to put their story out there sealed the deal for me, and I wanted nothing to do with him or his Stories.

-BUT- As the world turns, and I got older, wiser, and more desperate for truth and not placation, I rediscovered "Mormon Stories". Members who had experienced abuse, members who were silenced for having legitimate concerns, members who were desperately trying to live the gospel and hating themselves for it... hit too close to my own experiences, and I again pushed "Mormon Stories" far from my mind, afraid it would shatter the veneer of what bit of faith I had left.

Then, I allowed myself to fully read, not skim, the Saints book and the Gospel Topic Essays. I had avoided it for a long time (years), because many friends and family read them, and left the church. It was shocking, and my testimony was fragile because of upheaval in my life. I prayed long and hard that it would lead to truth, and understanding. That it would teach me why the traditions, apparatuses, and methods of the church worked as they did. My study led to horrendous gossip of me and my family in our ward, and I ultimately was called in and "schooled" by my Bishop over an instance that hadn't even happened. He shut down and interrupted everything I tried to say.

I prayed that night, that God would forgive me for leaving the church. Then the floodgates opened. I NEEDED to know that I wasn't this one, lone child of God that He was trying to cast off, and didn't want returning to Him. I needed to know that yes!, church experiences come with depth, range, and not everyone thrived in the Mormon church. I needed to know that others were willing to take the leap into the unknown. I needed to know there was joy post-mormonism.

I also needed to learn that "Mormon" will always be part of my heritage, and that "Mormon" is still a part of me and has influenced who I am and who I will become. Being "mormon" isn't an experience that is owned by those enjoying their religious experience, or enjoying the perks of the institution. It is simply heritage, experience, and the identity of all who come under it's banner.

Thank you, John Dehlin for helping me not be alone in one of the scariest times of my life. Thank you for allowing me to see that "mormonism" is messy, multi-faceted, and even beautiful. Thank you for showing me that there are many that left for peace and stability, not for sex, drugs and avarice. I was genuinely scared I was not going to be able to maintain being an honest and chaste human who could still say "no" to vice, because I left the church. (Although that superstitious view is a little embarrassing now).

Thank you for Mormon Stories. Your podcast helped me find peace. I now find joy in worshipping God. I have learned to truly respect the agency of those around me. I am grateful for their stories, and mine.

TL;DR--New YW titles all connote helping, while longstanding YM titles all connote leading. This reflects the LDS church's enduring commitment to patriarchal gender roles.

LDS youth programs are intended to prepare young Mormons to fill religious gender roles in their future families and congregations.

Mormon boys receive escalating titles that each come with increases in practical power and authority in their community. The titles themselves communicate leadership innately:

"Deacon"--traditionally a figure of moderate authority in Protestant churches.

"Teacher"--in both religious and secular situations, a teacher is usually the most educated/qualified person in the room. A leader and authority figure to their students.

"Priest"--in religious contexts, a person who represents/speaks for God--the ultimate authority and leader of the universe. Exercises authority over worshippers in various ways.

The connotation of these titles is extremely clear--LDS boys are being groomed to become leaders in their communities.

Compare this with the denotation/connotation of the new Young Women's titles:

"Builders of Faith"--builder has no connotation of leadership in English. For me, it brings to mind literal construction of buildings. In this context, the authority figure is an architect or a foreman. Builders help build the building, but they don't lead.

"Messengers of Hope"--messengers definitionally have no authority of their own, they operate only to transfer the message of the leader who sent them. They help the sender, but they don't author the message. Ironically, "apostle" in religious contexts has the connotation of both a helper and a leader, but I think we all know why LDS leadership would refuse to call a group of young women "apostles" (despite the fact that Paul mentions a woman apostle in the NT.)

"Gatherers of Light"--This one has absolutely no connotation of authority or leadership. In fact, people are rarely labelled as "gatherers" anywhere in American English, so it's hard to even pin down its connotation, but to me it's got a "helper" vibe.

Each YW title easily qualifies as a helper, but none carries the clear meaning of leader.

I think we all know why.

Hello, I need help. Does anyone know if it’s possible to blacklist someone from donating to the LDS church??? Or potentially even get donated money back? PLEASE READ before making conclusions. My father in law in extremely mentally ill to the point where he can’t keep a job. Guys he has donated ALL THE FAMILIES MONEY to the church!!! Next month he will officially lose the house and be homeless with his wife who has stage 4 Alzheimer’s Disease, he tells us people in the church encourage him to donate even more WE LITERALLY HAVE NO MORE MONEY TO TAKE. We have tried to get a conservatorship, but it’s taking too long and now it’s too late. He has doing this most of his life, my husband and his brothers were never even able to receive an education because they had to work to make ends meet and now they’re finally going to be homeless because of it. Enough is enough, this has ruined all of our lives and all of us have strayed away from the LDS church because of it, we have no faith in any God at this point everything just seems so hopeless. I’m not saying this to be rude I am just trying to put into perspective how this has affected us. We have lost everything.

How many Mormons have a deep understanding of the less known doctrines and history of the church? Do most just know the basics such as Temple work, marriages, baptisms, etc. Please give me a %. From whom I have met, I would say only 15% have a deep understanding by having read Brigham Young speeches, having read the King Follett Discourse, the gospel topics, Utah history, the history of the Danites, and what critics have said. Do you think I am way off in my estimate?

The rest just have a surface knowledge of Mormonism in my opinion and are happy not knowing more.

Look, I'm an active, tithe paying, card carrying, gospel-believing member. But I just CANNOT anymore with some of this

I am embarrassed that apparently none of the supposedly competent adults in the COB can detect the utter cringe of the new YW group names

I am tired of hearing about whatever was discussed on "the podcasts" every week in Sunday school

I hate that the YW general president cosplays as a social media influencer. YOUNG TEENAGERS SHOULD NOT BE USING SOCIAL MEDIA ARE WE REALLY THIS STUPID

The Church has swallowed the dumbest parts of internet culture hook line and sinker, and I'm getting tired of pretending it's not a problem for me.

I JUST WANT THE FOCUS TO BE ON JESUS CHRIST WHY IS THAT SO HARD

/rant

The “not rebranding” rebranding campaign continues. Today it is the renaming of the young women’s groups. We see that the brethren will flower the Mormon women with words and titles but not with actual authority.

Women remain secondary, not complete people, and currency for priesthood brethren in the Mormon Church.

Not that long ago I was the faithful servant spouting all the lines I was taught about Mormon women. Now I realize that the biggest insult to someone like Bednar, or any Mormon priesthood authority, would to be treated how Susan Bednar is treated by her husband and the Mormon church.

New classes and names:

Builders of Faith (young women turning 12-13)

Messengers of Hope (young women turning 14-15)

Gatherers of Light (young women turning 16 or older)

The new Young Womens' titles that were announced recently inspired me to write the following.

---

You're a young teenager with a few siblings, all older than you, and each of them got to stay up past 10pm once they turned 14. You bring it up one day at dinner, saying, "I can't wait to turn 14 so that I can stay up later!" Your parents look at each other with strained smiles, then turn back to you and look at you. They stay silent. Just long enough for it to be a bit uncomfortable.

Mom breaks the silence. "Well, we think it'd be better if you stuck to a 10pm bedtime until you're out of the house and heading off to college. We love you so much and can see so much potential in you. You have so much promise! We are worried that if you stayed up late, it could lead to worse grades or slow down your progress with the clarinet. You're so talented, and you're just too precious to us to let you take that kind of a... risk."

You're confused. "But... my siblings get to stay up as late as they want. Isn't that unfair?"

"Different people need different things, but that doesn't make it unfair," your dad answers. "I can see how it feels unfair from your perspective, but in actuality, we've thought a lot about this. Sometimes different people need different rules. Everyone has different roles to fill, and different roles require different training to reach their full potential. You wouldn't send a basketball player to a cooking class, would you?"

"Um... no."

"Right. That'd be silly. Sorry honey, but I promise you'll realize in the future this was the best thing for you. Mom and I love you so much and we've talked about it quite a bit. We hope you'll understand."

"Yeah... I love you, Dad. Thanks. Ok."

It bothered you. Clearly they knew something that you didn't. It never totally made sense though, and as the years went and after the conversation ended in the same way again and again, you gave up trying to reason it out.

Sure, their answers weren't satisfactory, but ultimately you trusted them. Your parents were great, all things considered. They were loving, trusting, and made sure you had everything you needed and plenty of comforts besides. They would always listen when you had a worry, giving you a chance to speak your mind.

Eventually it occurred to you that maybe if you proved yourself as even more responsible and capable than your siblings, then it would show your parents that you could handle a later bedtime without the other important things slipping. You started to look for extra ways to contribute: you took out the trash without being asked, always cleaned up everything after yourself, and tried to go the extra mile whenever your parents asked for something. You studied harder, and for the first time you got straight As over a whole school year. You became the first chair in the clarinet section in the school band. And sure enough, it seemed work: your parents kept commenting on how much you were achieving and how proud they were of you. When you asked for other things, like more time to watch TV or to stay over at your friends house just a little bit longer, they seemed to be more willing to listen and would say yes more often. You didn't push the big issue though. Not yet.

Eventually your 14th birthday arrived: the big day. You knew your efforts would be rewarded. Maybe even if they didn't completely remove the bedtime, maybe they would at least let you stay up until 11pm? You would be so happy, even just for that. Surely they could see that you were ready. After gifts, cake, and a great party, 9:30pm rolls around and your parents say, "Well, wasn't that fun. It's bedtime!"

Your heart drops. "I was thinking... that maybe I could just stay up until 11 tonight?"

Your mom lets out a little breathy exhale and her hands go up to rest on her hips. "I feel like we've talked about this enough already, haven't we?"

"Sorry kiddo," Dad interjects. Everyone can sense that Mom doesn't have the emotional reserves for this, and you can tell from his wide eyes and casual-ish smile that is is trying to cut this issue quickly before it gets messy. "But the rules are what they are. You've got a big concert tomorrow anyway, I want you to be well rested for it. Make sure to clean up your plate too."

---

Your 15th and 16th birthday passes by, and your siblings continue to stay up as long as they want. You go to bed at 10pm on the dot every night. When you feel courageous, you ask your parents if maybe just 30 more minutes at night would be okay, but they never budge. In fact, to your horror, your parents even start to say that all of your academic and musical achievements are likely because of your 10pm bedtime.

On the day before your 17th birthday, your parents tell you that they will have a special announcement to make, and your heart swells. Is this finally it? It has to be. Obviously the last few years were a test, a training ground to prove your worth, and individually customized parenting strategy to build you up into the person you could become and now finally after all you've done the reward is here!

Gifts are placed before you and laying to the side of them there is a curious envelope with your name written on it, in Dad's big block letters. You go for that first. The best gifts are in the smallest packages, after all!

You tear it open and pull out the card, but not too quickly as to give away your true excitement. You scan the card but the meaning doesn't register. You start again from the beginning, slower this time: "Now that you are 16 years old, we feel it is time to award you the title 'Foundation of the Family', because you have done so much to support everyone, going above and beyond with chores, school work, and everything else, always excelling in whatever you do! We love you!" Signed, Mom & Dad.

You let out a shaky, "thanks Mom and Dad. This is a really nice gift."

You didn't notice that your siblings had disappeared into the neighboring room, and you see them return, carrying a big banner with the words: "We love you! You are our foundation!" They start to pin it up on the wall.

Your mom's smile is radiant and glowing. "You're so welcome honey! Now, let's get out the cake and ice cream so that we can get things done before your bedtime."

You look at the clock: 9:30pm.

We all know they could have done better. Here are my top five:

1. Angels of Charly, Powerpuffs, Children of Destiny
2. Tellestias, Terrestrias, and Celestes
3. Esthers, Sarahs, Ruths
4. Niñas, Pintas, and Santa Marias
5. Downlines, Distributors, and Founders

Deaconess

Teacher

Priestess

Let the Young Women participate in preparing and passing the sacrament.

They can still have your gendered distinctions between key holders, priesthood authority, and priesthood power (atleast until there is enough pressure to ordain women).

We're not talking about the John Dillon lawsuit anymore. Sometimes comical is effective.