r/antinatalism

What if those children suffer horribly due to any random evil or bad thing that can happen?

In the warped world of religious people, God will hopefully make everything right either in this life or in the next one. In that world, there is an afterlife where everything will be fine and where God will be able to maybe cancel everything bad that happened to innocent people that suffered horribly. This gives religious people so many answers they can give their children if something horrible happens to them.

I am of course aware that in both sides no one really thinks about anything and just goes with the flow of life and their biological impulses. I am sad and finding no trace of the critical thinking that is supposed to be present here.

What answers can an atheist give to his child if he has cancer and suffers horribly ? What if he has an accident and becomes paralyzed ? What if he goes through horrible traumatic events ?

Why would they condemn innocent beings to certain death in a world that provides no answers to all the evil that is done in it ? Why would they want, knowingly, to expose their child to the fear of death and the unkown?

Why would they expose innocent beings to unnecessary risks and guaranteed suffering and death ? They are not the ones who will pay the price of all the dangers that their children can encounter.

I will now try to pre-shot a few possible counter arguments I've seen given by atheists in the past :

\- I consider that life is worth living and I will take good care of my child no matter what.

\-> This is in no way in the interest of the child and does not account for catastrophic events that can happen to him. I of course do not disagree that it is in the interest of the parent to have children. What should matter is the life of the child who could have been spared unnecessary suffering.

\- If the child is not satisfied with his life he can easily exit it.

\-> This is of course not true. Once you are born, the harm is already done and generally everyone will have a biological drive and impulse to to hold on to life no matter the degree of their suffering.

Even for someone who wants to do it, it is extremely hard to do so because it can be very scary, it could fail and leave him in a state worth than death, it will hurt the people he loves and he may choose to continue with life just to avoid traumatizing his loved ones.

\- Why watch a movie if you know that is going to end?

\-> When you make decisions for yourself it is completely fine because you are the only one that will bear the consequences. Making a decision on behalf of someone else who will then face the consequences is not normal.

\- Being a nihilist and knowing that life has no meaning or purpose shouldn't prevent you from leaving it fully and sharing it with people you love before your death.

\-> Of course. The problem is bringing new people in this hell that we're living in. Please don't fall in the trap of justifying evil actions. Be happy and share this life with your loved ones. If you truly want children no matter what, please adopt and save innocent beings that have been thrown in this meat grinder and abandoned by life.

Adoption is completely different from having your own biological children? You really want your own biological children no matter what? This is absolutely not for the sake of the child.

For those antinatalists who find comfort in “eternal oblivion” (after death), their experience of comfort while thinking about no longer existing reveals that they’re not being merely poetic when they say things like "peaceful oblivion". It shows that they really do believe death will lead to an endless experience of peace. Why else would they feel comfort when thinking about no longer existing? What else could we call this but a belief in an afterlife?

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Can a person with biological children be an antinatalist? Obviously, I mean someone who procreated a human being and later realized how cruel it was to have done so. Is that possible? What do you all think?

I mean, you can be against it and thought it's okay to have children but there are so many people saying it's illogical when it clearly isn't. I remember being a young teen and already understanding that the only thing garanteed by life was suffering and happinesss was not. The most common argument natalist have against antinatalism is that "it's natural to have children" and yeah sure, it's biologically natural to have a child when you have a sexual relationship with someone but children used to be born because people didn't have access to contraception but they liked sex, that doesn't mean it's natural for your rational brain to want children. When you look at interviews of women from the time contraception was illegal, they often complain about having that many children. And I would like to add that it is very natural to have selfish wants and that not a reason to follow them. And still, I can understand that they decide to take the risk of having children in certain environnement because the chance their children would be happy are high but never 100% while the chance of suffering are always 100% but I don't understand how they can pretend that antinatalism isn't the most rational response to end human suffering.

I have seen people full of life slipping into emotional turmoil because of cancer. It's heartbreaking to see. The countless tears they shed when their own body actively tries to kill them. The pain and the suffering, no one should ever have to go through that. The most scariest part is anyone could have it, irrespective of whether you are following a healthy lifestyle or not. You think you are doing fine but suddenly one fateful day your life becomes upside down. I am never gonna force anyone into this filthy luck based game.

Many people ask whether my parents had anything to do with my antinatalism and I always used to shun the idea, but honestly, they had everything to do with it.

Growing up as Muslims, where beating kids is recommended by the religion, if the child is not praying at a certain age or disobedient, at least by the Islam we practiced in Mombasa, Kenya, we were constantly beaten at the Islamic school but nothing could triumph over the beatings I received at home...

1, sometimes 2 hour sessions of straight abuse by my father when I was between 6 to 10 years was the worst time of my life. My father was a military man and would not be much into our personal lives. My mum was a teacher and would be the one who goes to family meetings, school meetings etc. They played bad cop good cop where my mum would compile the "wrong" things I would do and my father, despite not always being there, always knew what I was doing, which ofcourse my mum would be the source. It would be a ritual, after an amount of time, they'd agree that it is time for me to be straightened up, my mum would feed my dad the info and he would do the beating.

It was the worst, I used to be asked to strip naked, maybe only on underwear and I had to face the belt. Blood, marks and pain. 1 sometimes 2 hour session of unending horror. Beatings that would have me crying to the point of no tears, where I was beaten for "mistakes", questioned on them, beaten for my answers and then beaten for crying. The belt would get cut, another one would be brought by my mum.

While trusting my mum, she would lure me into going to the room to "just speak to my father", almost like it was not going to be a beating. As a child, I found no escape from these adult, adults in their 30s btw. And just when one thing ended, another thing that only my mum knew was brought up and the same abuse would go on and on while my mum sat outside, acting helpless, believing that it is the way and sometimes would come in where my father would act like he's threatening her to sustain the good cop bad cop dynamic. But this was all a game as she stayed with him and fed him more reasons to beat me for the next time, as she closed the door on me after luring me in and then again acting helpless.

After the horror sessions, my mum would act like the saviour but it did continue, it also continued with my little brother and I have more vivid memories of him where he would get beaten to the point of being stomped on the head by my father.

When it was happening to my brother, I felt that we had no option but him to go through it as well, that just like my mom was powerless I was powerless, but again, she provided the content, he abused us while she watched and the cycle continued.

I had to now be the adult and step in, I had to tell my brother what to say, never to argue even if he was right, to shut up, to just say sorry even if the accusation was wrong, to maybe wear puffy clothes which he would be asked to remove. Sometimes, I would go in with other evidence that would help my brother as I watched my mum do nothing outside the door, just listening because she also believed that was the right way. We were being taught not to stand up for injustice and that suffering is inevitable.

While we laugh about how much we used to get beaten with my brother, we both have not fully understood what that did to us.

As a child, being whopped using a belt, in a manner where you see slaves being whopped in movies for hours, with no end in site, by your parent, to the point of bleeding and getting marks, when there is no one to help must have done so much that we have not understood yet. Trauma that we're yet to even unpack.

My brother and I always then dreamt of running away one day, we didn't know where to, but we knew we wanted to run away. One day, this will end, we said to each other after the beatings, as we suffered we thought, one day we will be free, far away from our parents.

Living in Kenya, where we knew nothing about children's rights, the only other option was being street children, and in a country with extreme poverty, that meant exposure to different abuse and exploitation, so we had to become accommodative of being beaten, we adapted. We had our talking points ready before beatings, we had learned how to “fool” my dad. Our answers to the question "why?" would always be, "there is no reason" even if there was one, because we learned that submission was the way.

After the beating sessions, my father would the next day cuddle us, talk to us and tell us how much he loved us, bought us treats and food. Take us out, talk to us softly over his points that he did the day before like a gentle parent, I got my first phone when I was 10 after a merciless beating.

When I visited my cousins after primary school and saw that they had cool parents, I knew I needed to escape my home and in highschool I wanted to go as far as I possibly could to be away from my parents and luckily, I did go to boarding school where I got a scholarship to go to a different country at the age of 14.

Growing up, I always used to think that I would have a different path, I’d be gentle with my children, I wanted to be a different parent than what my parents were to me.

Of course this idea left my head when I understood that I have not yet overcome my trauma, I decided never to have children as I understood that I don't even know how much the abuse affected me.

Of course later, when I got to know more about everything, the world, and the state of the world and life, I understood that I will never have children but, the main reason was indeed my upbringing.

Today, after the abuse that we went through, my parents are still not remorseful, on a high horse saying that that was love. I can't wait to love them back the only way they understand as they now try to fuck up my youngest brother’s life. Acting like taking care of him is a favour when they dare the ones who decided to have sex and birth him without his consent.

And this time, as my parents get older and can no longer physically beat my other siblings they are trying to use financial abuse and threats to withdraw financial support as a belt to punish my little brother all that while they travel together.

I have this question.

How many of you are just childfree , or childfree and anti natalist?

Question for childfree and antinatalist:How would you see a person being child free but not an antinatalist?

Question for just childfree: how do you see a person being childfree and an antinatalist?

I am just a child free person and conditional antinatalist I would like to say that (If it exists?)

I just had a thought that brought me some comfort. You can basically skip to the last two paragraphs as a tldr.

For a long time I’ve wondered what my mom’s life would be like if she followed her dreams, instead of just settling down and having kids (I know it’s a “dream” to some, but it’s a biological or socially conditioned one). Due to war, she fled her home in what was supposed to be her final year of college and eventually immigrated to the US. She always wanted to be a geography teacher. She could have learned English for some time and have gone to college here. She could’ve lived some kind of fulfilling life for herself instead of working a mindless job to help support her family. Growing up, I always wished that that was the path my mom chose for herself instead of choosing me. It occurred to me from a relatively early age that I only exist because of a war that happened in the homeland that caused my parents and their families to flee and find each other here. That war and violence and conflict and suffering, those are just simply facts of life. That ultimately, my birth/existence was some kind of bandaid over my parents’ traumatic experiences, that somehow I was supposed to give their lives a greater meaning.

Of course, I won’t have any children of my own, and I know that is the greatest thing that I’ll ever be able to do for them. They’re non-existent, so it’s weird to use any pronouns when describing them, but I just imagine myself in their place (the void or wherever), exactly where I was before my parents decided to bring me into the world. How I would be happy not to have ever existed at the “expense” of my mom living a life for herself. Or my dad, who somehow held onto life despite being systematically starved and tortured, how I wish he took care of himself rather than find purpose in me.

That is the gift I’m giving to my “children”. Their “dad” has figured it out, that life is no gift, but a contract signed on one’s behalf without their consent. That bringing them out of the void and into this world is not necessary for his “life’s purpose”. That any temporary “comfort” or “happiness” they may experience is only made possible by the necessary suffering of other living beings. There’s no risk that they’ll have to experience or grapple with the brutality for themselves.

I don’t know, this just kind of came to me. I think I’ve felt this for a while, the pieces of this puzzle have been thoughts in my head before, but now it’s finally together: I’m doing for my “children” (and for myself) exactly what I wish my parents had done for me (and for themselves). In a way it feels like it’s come full circle. After billions of years of evolution and lineage, I get to be the one to put an end to it.

"Living with Adversity Eighteen Personal Accounts" Edited by David Benatar

"Adversity is widespread. While many people recognize the challenges posed by destitution, disease, disability, or discrimination, considering only these conditions seriously underestimates how much adversity there is. We meet and interact with many people, but only rarely do we know anything about the hardships they confront. The eighteen personal accounts in this collection provide a range of examples of the kinds of physical, psychological, and social adversities people face. The authors explain what it is like to live with these challenges. The essays convey both the hardships and challenges but also methods of adaptation and coping. The narratives are intended to be neither redemptive nor morose. They are frank but un-wallowing descriptions that will enlighten those not facing the same adversities—and resonate with those who do share them."

i'm going to keep this as civil as possible so the moderators allow this post: there is a lot of talk on this sub about poor people having children despite not being able to afford them, but what about rich people? rich people are more likely to have access to abortions and contraception, as well as an education on family planning. rich people are less likely to be forced into a lifestyle they do not want, as many vulnerable poor girls are unfortunately sold off to older men and expected to pop out babies, else they have no way of sustaining themselves. and let me try the more valid justification: "we want to make the world a better place!" but being rich = thriving off of capitalism, so they would essentially preach capitalist ideologies that only benefit the bourgeois party. why don't they make the world a better place themselves? an overwhelming amount of them partner with brands that use child labour and fund genocides, which correlates to not caring about children. and rich people who use surrogates? it is ethically wrong, is it not? why do they think they are entitled to inflict pain on a human being? if they cannot conceive, what stops them from adopting a living, breathing, suffering child? after all, women are not machines to be dehumanised and exploited. i see a similar pattern in paid sex work under capitalism.

i think to each their own but i will never want to have kids . if god was real he’d give people the option to be born lol

Preface because I feel it's necessary: I'm a vegetarian. The only animal products I consume are milk and eggs from a small local farm I know treats their animals well, and the unavoidable ones we find in our appliances.

Last post before I leave this sub and mute it. Will check back in a few months maybe.

I used to love the discussions and community here as one of the few subs with good enough moderation to stop the unhinged arguments that happen in many similar subs, but in the past weeks the veganism debate has reached a point of heat that it's consumed the sub. The last 10-15 posts I've seen have been all on this debate, despite my efforts to filter them out. It's just tiring. Not to mention the brigading going on on both sides of the aisle.

I believe veganism/vegetarianism is intrinsically tied to antinatalism. I also believe that, frankly, arguing about it this aggressively isn't going to convince anyone and just polarizes people against us and reinforces negative stereotypes about vegans.

Give it a week to force people to cool their heads and then hope people resume the respectful debate I used to like this place for.