r/LeavingNeverlandHBO

In Michael’s case what happened was a confluence of events from childhood to his formative years. Joe’s sexual abuse of Rebbie, Latoya, and possibly even Janet was not only normalized but he also grew up in an ineffective social environment which did nothing to challenge that normalization - Gary, Indiana - one of the poorest most crime ridden and downtrodden cities in the United States and then Hollywood - where everything is superficial and exploitative.

Michael was more than likely abused sexually.

He watched his brothers use girls for sex and discard them; plus being surrounded by yes men didn’t help. He watched and learned how to tell people what they want to hear and he saw the effectiveness of that superficiality.

During adolescence and puberty I think he realized that he was attracted to boys but with no stable moral center to ground him, he came out of puberty having internalized the sexual deviance inflicted upon him. Unlike the majority of people, Michael’s sexual preferences didn’t age with him.

If he had any conflict about it, any reservations about how what happened to him might’ve been wrong it would’ve been his early teenage years. I’d be curious to know when the “battle for his soul” moment took place? Most likely the early 70’s.

All of this is learned behavior and patterned responses.

Many of the Songs on Michael Jackson's HIStory (1995) are MJ darvo-ing and going "poor me i'm a helpless victim of everyone", the Song D.S stands out in that it actually namedrops one of MJ's "enemies", Tom Sneddon (1941-2014) . Sneddon was the lead investigator of the 1993 and later 2005 CSA allegations against him. The song lyrics in the album sheet say that the individual, describe as a "cold man" in the song is "Dom Sheldon" but if you listen to the song itself MJ's clearly singing about "Tom Sneddon".

Throughout the song MJ DARVOs, angrily painting himself as an unfairly persecuted victim while all but describing Tom Sneddon as a KKK racist who has ties to random organizations such as the CIA and wants "his ass dead or alive"

Some lyrics:

>They wanna get my ass dead or alive
You know he really tried to take me down by surprise
I bet he missioned with the CIA
He don't do half what he say

>Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man

>He out shock in every single way
He'll stop at nothing just to get his political say
He think he hot 'cause he's BSTA
I bet he never had a social life anyway

>You think he brother with the KKK?
I bet his mother never taught him right anyway
He want your vote just to remain TA
He don't do half what he say

The song is at least partly why many MJ stans have an extreme hatred Sneddon and view him as a Mark Furhman-esque racist monster. Hell a stan even played the song while videotaping themselves literally dancing on Sneddon's grave .

After rewatching leaving neverland and hearing the Cascio’s i felt disgusted and horrified that michael could do such a thing to these children the part where James describes the wedding ceremony made me almost vomit with anger and I even had to switch the doc of for a while due to these abhorrent memories of abuse. I had Thriller, Bad and Dangerous and i can no longer listen to this predator so i decided i would just sell it all. After finding out the movie makes michael seem like Jesus made me even more sad because his estate feeds into the public view that he was some depressed child like man who lived children. It’s time we wake up and stop praising hood abusers including michael

This says it all…

Latoya, you did the right thing, you’re an angel.
She’s just amazing here, what a woman ❤️

It also wasn’t just molesting/touching.

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Michael Jackson’s obsession with baby photos is very alarming. During interactions with fans, he asks them to hand him posters featuring babies. I noticed that whenever he has a chance to talk, he brings them into the conversation.

I watched this documentary when it was originally released, but rewatching it now, I’m picking up on his not-so-subtle fixation even more, and it’s really concerning.

Why were his fans making posters like this?

Okay so a lot of stuff has come up recently in various social media that I've been made aware of and I wanted to discuss this because I think that this is important.

No shade to the people who have shared Maureen Callahan's videos, she appears to (sometimes) believe Michael is guilty but she has also cast doubt on the Cascio siblings claims, she's also a conservative who only has her own show because of Megyn Kelly.

Megyn Kelly is completely against the survivors of Michael, she recently cast doubt on Leaving Neverland WITH Mark Geragos who was on her show, the fact that he chose to go on there and shit talk about Wade and James makes me glad that he is no longer repping the Cascios.

MattsFTR has been on with Roxanne Johnson, he used to be a staunch supporter and defender of Michael but switched to believing the victims, but he did recently say he was "suspicious" of Marie Nicole's story and even mocked the finger guns / snap code word that Michael would use with her to send the signal he wanted to abuse her again.

Dan Reed recently spoke about how people do not care about Michael's victims, but to me he undermined his entire point by saying that he was suspect of the Cascio's motives in coming forward, though he did not deny that he believed them and their abuse, he also made it seem like they were after money, which is the Estate's narrative.

Many commenters on Roxanne's videos seem to find it hard to believe that the Cascio siblings didn't know each other were being abused, and some call into question the 60 minutes interview (because they claim it felt scripted)

I just want everyone to be aware that just because someone says they believe Michael may have been guilty, doesn't mean they are an advocate for his survivors. Roxanne Johnson is an advocate for victims and survivors, she believes them regardless of "inconsistencies" or "off vibes".

As important and impactful as people who speak about Michael's crimes are, some of them are not actually standing by his victims but are merely grifters, Maureen and Megyn are on opposite sides of the guilty spectrum but they are both fuckass grifters and make money off the trauma of others. Mark Geragos is a lawyer first and foremost and he only goes where the money is, if he's going on a conservative show and casting doubt on Leaving Neverland then that means he doesn't stand by Michael's survivors, he's just an opportunist who probably felt miffed that Michael lied to him in 03. Does that mean he doesn't believe the Cascios? Who fucking knows, but he's not an advocate.

And I know this is going to piss a lot of people off, but as important as Leaving Neverland was and still is, Dan Reed is not an advocate for survivors of CSA. He just isn't, he did a really good thing making this documentary and supporting Wade and James, but he isn't the person that people should be looking to for advocacy, I'm glad he made Leaving Neverland and I am glad he believes Wade and James, but he is not an advocate, nor is he an expert in CSA trauma.

Advocacy means to stand by abuse victims and survivors even if they are not perfect, even if they are on opposite political sides than you, standing up for abuse victims means that sometimes you will be standing up for someone you do not like or do not align with. There is a survivor of a different abuser that I will not name but she has actively started a campaign against another survivor of another different abuser, but I still support her because what happened to her should have never happened, and as unfortunate as it is, many times survivors will turn against other survivors even of different abusers.

Another example, Lena Dunham wrote a book about her life years ago and described in detail how she groomed and manipulated her sibling and abused that sibling, she and many others claim it's "not abuse" and many people online defended it as "oh it's just that Lena was curious, it's just curiosity", but by Lena's OWN ADMISSION she did this up until her sibling was in his young teens. (Lena's sibling was born female but now identifies as transmasc / nonbinary and uses he/him pronouns) and recently has revealed that Adam Driver was aggressive towards her on the set of her show, I believe her and support her right to speak out about Driver even though she has done really shitty things herself and has no accountability for what she did.

I think it's important to note the difference between someone who supports victims and survivors and then grifters like Maureen and lawyers like Mark Geragos, and even Dan Reed who does believe the survivors, but that doesn't make him a CSA advocate and I don't think he was setting out to do that when he made Leaving Neverland.

Advocates for Michael's survivors and other survivors are out there and I believe they should be lifted up.

Surely many believe Michael Jackson is guilty, it is a very divisive topic, but he still was not convicted and has legions of fans and casuals defending him.

Was there anything else that could have been done while Michael was alive? Did the jornalists who interviewed him make a poor job? Could they have asked better questions? Could they have played his game and made him give more revealing answers? He likely had a pedo mentality, if he openly admitted to sleeping with children, he could have revealed more with the right questions.

I once saw a tweet from an MJ stan saying that the South Park episode "The Jeffersons" was one of the meanest depictions of him in the media ever.

Yet, objectively speaking, by both South Park standards (this is the show that depicted Kanye West humping fish, Mel Gibson as an unhinged masochist, Paris Hilton getting shoved up Mr. Slave's ass, Bono as a literal piece of shit, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg raping Indiana Jones, and Barbra Streisand transforming into a monster called Mecha-Streisand) and by the standards of MJ discourse in the 2000s prior to his death, it was pretty tame.

MJ was depicted as a developmentally stunted manchild weirdo who was a bad parent and engaged in anti-social behavior yet Matt and Trey went out of their way to make clear that they did not believe the allegations of him being a child predator were true.

That MJ stan melodramatically complaining about The Jeffersons strikes me as an encapsulation of how his stans expect everyone to uncritically worship the "King of Pop".

I came across this short interview with Damion Stein (from The 2005 doc “Michael Jackson Boys”), who met Michael when he was 9 yo… he seems to describe MJ’s classic grooming tactic:

1. After Damion sent him a poem as a fan, MJ started calling him obsessively. 
2. MJ sent him numerous letters, saying he was his best friend. 
3. MJ invited him (alone without his parents) to his secret hideout apartment.
4. MJ started visiting the family frequently, arriving at evenings and staying overnight. Telling them that they allow him to experience what it’s like to be part of a real family. 
5. MJ started having intensive and frequent, long telephone conversations with his mother Glenda, in which he confided in her about his traumatic childhood and life (these are the famous ‘Glenda Tapes’).

When MJ started calling Glenda 3-4 a day, during all hours, including in the middle of the night, her husband started getting suspicious, wondering if they’re having an affair… he started recording their conversations (unknowingly to both Glenda and MJ). 

One day, without any warning, MJ stopped calling. He completely disappeared, and they never heard from him again.

Damion and the family were heartbroken… little did they know how lucky they got, that he dropped them mid-grooming.