u/Icy-Investment407

I'm asking this here because I’m trying to make sense of this complain about straight men I often see on this sub, depcting straight men who only want roamntic/sexual realtionshisp as sexist.

Gay (male) dating culture

• In gay dating culture it's the normalcy to have dated or hooked up with most other gay men in the social circle.
• If you have a gay male friend, they usually win by far in any contest on body count. This is supported by research: gay men are by far the most promiscuous demographic.
• It has nothing to do with friendships per se. On gay dating apps, any man - regardless of his looks level - can match with most people he swipes right on (just like straight women).
• It's because gay men are attracted to a vast majority of men, just like straight men are with women.

my experience and socialization

• I don’t hit on all my female friends, but only due to socialization. Feminist articles and feminist socialization have taught me that it’s wrong to hit on all female friends, and that I must have platonic relationships with women.
• I did that despite preferring dating all the time. I just accepted friednship even though I always wanted more.
• But here's the thing: If I were gay, I would hit on all my gay friends, just like gay men do. All the gay men I’ve gotten to know eventually hit on me and then dropped me as a friend after I rejected them. Honestly I found it very flattering.
• I see myself as a human, and I don't see any issue with most women hitting on me either.

Contradticton I See
So the fact is that I don’t hit on all the women I get to know (despite being attracted to them most of the time) but I would do it if I were interacting with gay men. To me, treating women differently than I would treat men is the actual sexism. I'm treating women like a different species.

Yet, many women here say that men who hit on all their female friends or men who only prefer romance/sex with straight women, are sexist.

my qestions are :

• Are many women ignorant of gay male dating habits?
• Are women aware that men would hit on women much, much more often if men truly saw women as equals (the way gay men see other gay men)? Do women just fail to fathom being attracted to most people due to ignorance and therefore view male preference only for non-paltonic bonds as sexist?
• Or do many women know this, but think that in some cases, treating women as a "different species" with special rules is justified sexism?
• Is slut-shaming the real reason why women don't act like this / don't feel attracted to most men?
• If it is just slut-shaming, why should a straight man support that? Wouldn't it be okay for a man to only want to be around women who have his same values (that slut-shaming is wrong) and therefore only want sex and dating from women, just like he does or would do if he was a gay dude?

I'm much more interested in romance than friendships. I feel like romance, sex and friendship together lead to the most intimate and fulfilling bonds. Yet I face this issue:

• In the gay community and among my gay male friends, it's extremely common to have dated or hooked up with most gay male friends. On the contary, it's rare to see purely platonic friendships. The same applies to gay dating apps, men of all looks leves can get hundredsof likes within hours.
• Hetero men are usually attracted to their female freidns according to research. Purely platonic streight friendships do exist, but most of the times - just like in gay friendships - straight men seem to harbor some attraction. Men also get very few likes on stragiht dating apps.
• Women usually seem to HATE it that most men watn to date, not be platonic. I've sene womensaying that men who don't have female friends are SEXIST. But at the same time, a man who has no girlfriends but only has feamle friends is seen as GOOD. It's like they see romance, dating as "dirtier" things than frendhsip.

As a consequnce I feel such a huge amount of guilt when I hit on women, i feel "this is objeticying" "you are sexist, you shoud want female friends' BUT I don't feel any guilt when hitting on gay people, in fact, gay men love it and I've never been rejected.

• It's like gay men understand that one can be attracted to many people, many peole to the point of having had few purely platonic relationships (which is the norm in the gay comunity, purely platonic bonds are rare),
  • but many women, particularly very progressive ones, can't fathom it, so it must be sexism to them if a man just wants dating. I know this reeks of "hypegamy", "80/20 rule", I really want to be wrong, it's just how my mind feels.

What do you think?

Mentre nei subreddit maschili gli uomini lamentano che non riescono a trovare una compagna, nei subreddit femminili le donne lamentano quasi ogni giorno difficolta nel trovare amici maschi. In particolare, le lamentele delle donne si focalizzano sulla frequenza con cui amici e conoscenti maschi ci provano o si innamorano di loro. Contrariamente a quanto si possa pensare, gran parte di queste lamentele non riguarda molestie, bensi il fatto stesso che cosi tanti uomini siano attratti. E' come se ci fosse una grossa assimetrai nel livelli di attrazione che uomini e donne provano per l'un l'altro, rispecchiando cio che vediamo nelle app di incontri. Ho deciso di aprire questo post per approfondire.

OSSERVAZIONI:

• Uomini etero/gay: La ricerca (es. Koening et al. 2007, Bleske-Rechek et al 2012) mostra che gli uomini etero sono molto spesso attratti dalle loro amiche. Tra gli uomini gay, sia gli incontri casuali che le frequentazioni serie all'interno dei gruppi di amici sono estremamente comuni. Questo non è diverso dalle app di incontri per gay, dove la maggior parte degli uomini - inclusi quelli poco attraenti - ottiene centinaia di match proprio come le donne etero. Gli uomini gay sono attratti e mostrano interesse per un'ampia varietà di persone, proprio come gli uomini etero, sia nelle loro amicizie che sulle app di incontri.
• Donne: La ricerca (vedi studi sopra) e aneddoti mostrano che le donne raramente provano il desiderio di frequentare i loro amici maschi. Aneddoti da Reddit, ogni girono ci sono miriarid di thread di donne che si lamentano del numero eccessivo di amici maschi o conoscenti che vogliono uscire con loro / hanno una cotta piuttosto che essere solo amici. Molte donne, come sembrano suggerire tantissimi thread su AskWomen e TwoXChromosomes, trovano persino anormale l'idea di uscire o provare sentimenti per un amico. Nelle app id cinontri, studi mostrano che le donne mettono il like ad una percentauel molto piccola di uomini.

CI SONO TRE POSSIBILI SPIEGAZIONI:

1. Socializzazione, Valore dell'Amicizia e Slut-shaming (Teoria Femminista)

• Non è che le donne siano fortemente attratte sessualmente/romanticamente da meno persone rispetto agli uomini.
• Le donne spesso rifiutano uomini da cui sono fortemente attratte sessualmente/romanticamente perché non vogliono rovinare l'amicizia.
• Le donne capiscono che una buona amicizia non si traduce automaticamente in una buona relazione, anche se c'è una forte attrazione reciproca.
• Slut-shaming puo essere un altro potenziale fattore che spinge le donne a nascondere la propria attrazione per gli amici maschi, spingendole a rifiutarli. Le donne temono di essere giudicate negativamente se appaiono promiscue nonostante provino attrazione per l'amico che rifiutano.

2. Teoria Evoluzionistica e Differenza nell'Attrazione

• Teoria sostenuta da psicoloig evoluzionisti come David Buss e influencer come Jordan Peterson.
• Le donne sono semplicemente attratte sessualmente da molte meno persone rispetto agli uomini.
• Non è che le donne rifiutino gli uomini da cui sono attratte perché danno più valore all'amicizia; le donne semplicemente non si sentono attratte sessualmente dalla stragrande maggioranza degli uomini in primo luogo, nemmeno nella loro "cerchia sicura" (gli amici).
• Le donne non affrontano il dilemma del "fare o non fare la prima mossa / il dilemma della friendzone" perché l'attrazione semplicemente non c'è.

3. Errore metodologico e aneddoti limitati (la differenza non esiste)

• La premessa stessa del discorso e' falsa: in realtà le donne mostrano interesse romantico e sessuale per i propri amici maschi esattamente con la stessa frequenza degli uomini. Probabilmente gli studi sul tema soffrondo di qualche errore o limitazione metodologica, mentre gli aneddoti online - per quanto numerosi - non sono un dato statistico affidabile.

DOMANDA PER TUTTI VOI:

1. Quale pensate sia la spiegazione giusta tra le tre?
2. Per le donne: Di solito rifiutate amici maschi da cui siete fortemente attratte sessualmente/romanticamente perché date valore all'amicizia o temete di essere giudicate come promiscue (Socializzazione)? O semplicemente provate attrazione per una piccolissima minoranza di uomini anche quando la minaccia dello sconosciuto non è un fattore, come nel caso degli amici maschi (Psicologia Evoluzionistica)?

OBSERVATIONS:

• Straight/Gay Men: Research (e.g. Koening et al. 2007, Bleske-Rechek et al 2012)  shows straight men are very often attracted to their female friends. Among gay men, both hookups and serious dating within friend groups are extremely commonn. This is not different from gay dating apps, most men - including bnaattractive men - get hundrds of matches just like straight women do on straight apps. Gay men are attracted to a wide variety of people - just like straight men - both in their friendshps and on dating apps.
• Women: Research (see above) and anecdotal evidence show women rarely feel sexual attraction to their male friends. Many women, as tons of threads on many female subs like TwoXChromosomes seem to suggest, even find the very idea of dating or having feelings for a friend abnormal. Not only that, women also give likes to a small minority of men on dating apps according to research.

THERE ARE TWO POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS:

1. Socialization and the Value of Friendship (Feminist Theory)

• It’s not that women are strongly sezually/romantically attracted to fewer people than men.
• Women often reject men they are strongly sexually/romantically attracted to because they don't want to ruin the friendship.
• Women understand that a good friendship doesn't automatically translate to a good relationship, even if there is strong mutual attraction women will prefer to reject the male friend.

2. Evolutionary Theory and Difference in Attraction (Buss/Peterson Theory)

• Theory advocated by people like David Buss and Jordan Peterson.
• Women are simply sexually attracted to way fewer people than men.
• It’s not that women reject men they are attracted to because they value friendship more; women simply don't feel sexually attracted to the vast majority of men in the first place, even in their "safe circle" (friends).
• Women don’t face the dilemma of "making or not making a move / friendzone dilemma" because the attraction just isn't there.

QUQESTION FOR YOU'ALL:

1. Which do you think is the answer right explanation among the two?
2. For the women: Do you usually reject male friends you are strongly sexually/romantically attracted to because you value the friendship (Socialization)? Or do you simply experience attraction to a tiny minority of men even when stranger threat is not a factor like among your male friends (Evolutionary Psychology)?

A couple of days ago, there was a highly upvoted post by a "girl dad" sharing his thoughts on the Man vs. Bear debate. OP of that post, if you're reading this, I want to start by saying I read your whole post, and I get where you’re coming from. I understand wanting to protect your daughter at all costs. But you asked people to hear you out and I am asking you to do the same for me.

You talked about stepping out of your bubble to understand a woman's perspective. I’m asking you to step out of it again and look at this from the perspective of a male survivor of abuse, because the blind spots in this discourse are doing real damage to boys.

1. Psychological toll of anti-male rheoric
I was raised by a very vocal feminist mother. Honestly, it traumatized me and led to massive self-esteem issues because I was constantly made to feel ashamed of simply being a boy. I was basically taught that men are inherently bad and that I needed to "learn from women."

When I was physically bullied and got my ass kicked at school, my mom invalidated my pain. Her response was just, "I'm sorry, just avoid them next time." But if my sister was bullied, or if a random guy said even a mean word to my sister or even one of her female friends, my mom would march up to the school and complain My pain didn't matter because I was a boy.

2. How society ignores male victims
This whole thread was full of people saying we need to teach boys the specific needs of women. Why aren't we just teaching kids to respect everyone's boundaries?

Growing up, I was violently and sexually abused hundreds of times. People would grab my groin or butt at school or beat me up, and I was expected to just "take it like a joke." The teachers literally watched it happen and ignored it. But the second a boy touched a female classmate once, the teachers would come down on him like a ton of bricks. Boys are at a much higher risk of physical bullying than girls according to studies but society routinely turns a blind eye to it.

3. Men are the main offenders, but they are also the most victimized and at risk of violence
The previous thread painted a picture where women are basically the only victims of violence. Look, women face awful things (especially harassment and non-rape sexual assault), and I'm not denying that. But if we look at the actual data, men are overwhelmingly more likely to be the victims of violent crime.

Even when it comes to rape, the narrative leaves men out by design. Look at the CDC's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. Because of how the law defines rape, when men are forced into sex, it is classified as "made to penetrate" instead of rape. But here is the kicker: When looking at the 12-month data, men reported being "made to penetrate" (either by physical force or being too intoxicated) at virtually the exact same rate as women reported being raped. (Both were 1.1% in 2010, and 1.7% vs 1.6% in 2011. Source: Time Magazine on CDC Rape Numbers).

Men face equal or worse violent crimes at much higher rates than women, Men are more likely to face violent crime, men are equally likely to face rape according to surveys. Women are instead much more lilely to face sexual harassment and non-rape sexual assault than men according to surveys and data, as much as these crimes are horrid they are less severe than the crimes men face at much high rates (murder and other violent crimes) or at similar rates to women (rape).

Men are also less liley to reprot crime committed aigans them than women are according to studies, so the gap may be even larger. But we teach boys that they should man up or care abou the needs of girls above theirs, as opposed to caring abou tthe needs of everyone.

4. The logic of Man vs. Bear makes no sense
OP went on a massive tanged and argued that choosing the bear makes sense because men commit more crimes than bears. Honestly, that’s just a massive base rate fallacy. We walk past thousands of men every single day; we meet zero bears.

By that exact same logic, women are statistically way more dangerous than bears. Women commit roughly 10-20% of violent crimes—which is still orders of magnitude higher than the number of assaults committed by bears. But nobody is out here arguing that women are more dangerous than wild animals.

5. This rhetoric is statistical profiling
This is what really gets me about the Man vs. Bear thing: it actively teaches and validates prejudice based on group statistics.

Criminals make up less than 1% of the population. Yes, within that tiny minority, men make up about 85%. That means men are roughly 6 times more likely than women to commit violence. But judging the 99% of innocent men by the absolute worst 1% is the exact same dehumanizing logic used to justify racism.

Think about it: statistically, Black people are arrested for violent crimes at 5 to 6 times the rate of white people (due to a mix of poverty and systemic issues). Yet, we all agree it is blatantly racist to cross the street when you see a Black guy just because of those stats. We know it's wrong to assume poor people are inherently dangerous.

Heck, this goes even beyond gender. If you look at the data, Black and Latina women actually have higher violent crime rates than Asian men. Does that mean we should start comparing Black and Latina women to bears? Of course not. That would be completely unhinged and bigoted.

So why are we acting like it's deep and profound to profile men a priori? If we apply the Man vs. Bear logic consistently, we would be forced to validate racial and class profiling, which is horrifying.

Conclusion
I get the point of the previous thread. We should care about our kids. But making it a gender war and using it to justify a pervasive sexism against men is wrong. Concluding that an entire demographic of people is "on par with a bear" is dehumanizing. It's counterproductive and it breaks the hearts of boys who are already growing up in a world that tells them their pain doesn't matter.