r/evokeendurance

I am 34M looking to optimize how I under take Z2 training. I have been running almost daily for about 2 years now, and haven’t seen much improvement in speed/pace. I have done multiple Blood Lactate over 2 years to try and establish an accurate pace. Over the past 3 months, I have completed multiple drift tests as another method to figuring out Z2, however they seem to contradict each other.

Blood Lactate: Z2 HR 117-137BPM, speed 6-8km/h (3.7-4.9mph)
Drift Test: Z2 HR 125BPM, speed 6.4kph (4.0mph)
MAF: 180-34 : 146BPM

The contradiction comes when I do Nasal breathing. I can sustain a 5.0mph for 1 hour doing Nasal breathing, however my heart rate at that pace drifts more than 5%, to as much as 12% increase

What is the actual delineation between Z2 and Z3? Because I can maintain Nasal breathing should I increase the speed to match that? Or would that push me into Z3? What would the ideal HR/speed/pace to ensure I stay in Z2?

Note: all running has been done in the AM, on the same treadmill, Garmin chest strap and watch.

Hey everyone,

I’m looking for some advice on structuring treadmill incline training because despite a lot of mountain experience, I still feel like I’m guessing when it comes to training efficiently for steep uphill performance.

Quick background so you know where I’m coming from:
I’ve done a fair amount of alpine and endurance stuff like : Aconcagua (twice), Kilimanjaro, nearly 30 Colorado 14ers, Mont Blanc, Mt. Whitney (Mountaineers Route), Cotopaxi, Cayambe, Pico de Orizaba, Rim-to-Rim and Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim, C2C, Tour du Mont Blanc, Mt. Baker, and more. And most of this SOLO. So I’m comfortable in the mountains overall, but I still struggle with making my training feel structured for bigger objectives.

Right now I’ve got Ama Dablam, Lobuche, and Island Peak coming up in November, and Denali next May. My strength training is consistent (3x/week), but treadmill training is where I feel unsure.

Current weekly structure:
3x strength training
2x incline treadmill (30–60 min at 12–15%, 2.0–2.5 mph)
Weekend: Colorado 14er

What I’ve noticed:
I’m slow on sustained uphill sections
But very strong/fast on descents (I often trail run down 14ers when it is safe)
My main issue is stopping too often on climbs and losing rhythm. I stop really very frequently and i hate it because it makes me feel so sad that despite finishing these many expeditions i am still slow uphill and take a lot of breaks.

So to fix this, I recently bought a treadmill (goes to 15% incline) to train daily. The new idea is to:
30 min incline treadmill every morning (12–15%, ~2.5 mph)
60 min session once a week (Friday)
keep strength training the same in evenings 3 days per week.

My main questions:
Is 30 min daily enough to actually improve uphill endurance?
Or is it too little stimulus to matter?
Is daily steep incline work too much on the legs over time?
Would fewer longer sessions be better instead?

My goal is simple:
Improve uphill speed and reduce how often I need to stop.
I’m open to changing structure and new suggestion the reddit mountaineering community has.. I just want to train smarter, not just harder. Despite a lot of climbing experience, treadmill training is the one area where I still feel like I’m not optimizing well.

Would really appreciate how others structure incline treadmill work for uphill endurance.

Thank you so much in advance!!

I know there is a thread just a couple posts down talking about carbs and fat oxidation but I don't want to hijack that thread with this question. In the book endure they actually talk briefly about Scott I think when he was training Steve..... Don't hold me to that I have to go back and reread that chapter but nevertheless they discuss long fasted workouts I believe upwards of 4 hours.... My previous understanding albeit limited was that the recommendation was once training exceeded roughly 10 hours a week the returns were limited on fasted exercise.... So I guess my question is am I mistaken or is this the typical don't try and train like the pros do kind of moment???

The question, in short: is it beneficial to hike with weight for my easy, aerobic base building work? If so, how much?

I think there are several nuances/things to note for this question. For example,

• of course consistency matters far more than any other factor. I'm already consistent in this, so I'm just wanting to optimize further. I generally do about 4000m per week, on foot or skis.
• I'm curious if there's an optimal amount of weight that drives SAID, but doesn't cause fatigue. I understand a large idea behind the aerobic base work is the minimization of global fatigue on the body, so you can do more work. Obviously unweighted is best for this, but less specific to the actual (mountaineering) activity. I can imagine a middle ground, say 5-10kg, that is still 90% as recoverable as unweighted work but much more specific/realistic. This is a spectrum--where is the right amount? Pack weight of 1% BW? 5%? 20%?
• then there's the downhill part. In the past when I do hill carries with water I generally dump out like 50% of it, because I still want to train my eccentric downhill movements, but not wreck myself. but I'm not totally sure about this approach. On the other hand, running downhill is a) fun af and b) maybe puts a similar strain on your body to slowly hiking downhill with weight?

I live in a mountainous area and I don't really have any options for flat runs (ok, some, but I'd lose motivation after about a week). So the majority of my base training is hiking up the mountain in aerobic HR, and then often running down. Often I go for a minimal trail-running style but I'm curious if I should change this approach.

My goals: 4000m peaks in a day style, building large work capacity for some rock route linkups, backcountry route development, long routes like Peuterey Integrale, Central Pillar of Freney

I have been trying to understand how to structure my nutrition around low-intensity endurance training (Zone 1–2) specifically for training adaptations, not performance, and I am struggling to find clear guidance.

Most resources explain how to fuel for performance (e.g., maximizing carbohydrate availability), but that is not my goal. I am only interested in improving aerobic base and fat metabolism over time.

My main questions:

• How and when should I eat before Zone 1–2 training sessions (typically 1–2 hours) if the goal is to maximize adaptations related to fat oxidation and aerobic development?
• How important is this in practice? Is this a meaningful factor for long-term adaptations, or more of a marginal “last few percent” optimization?
• Does waiting ~2–3 hours after eating (to allow insulin levels to drop) meaningfully affect fat oxidation and training adaptations during low-intensity sessions?

What I think I understand so far:

• High carbohydrate intake right before training increases blood glucose and insulin, which, as I understand it, reduces fat oxidation during the session — which would be counterproductive for my goal. Is that correct?
• Fasted training, as I understand it, increases fat oxidation. However, it is not practical for me to do this consistently, mainly due to time constraints (I cannot always train in the morning).
• During longer sessions, the body tends to rely more on fat over time anyway, but I am interested in optimizing the entire session, not just the later stages.

Additional question:

• I have read (e.g., in “Training for the New Alpinism”) that after ~90 minutes it can make sense to consume carbohydrates during training to support recovery. I understand that some carbohydrate availability is required for fat metabolism, but I am unsure how to balance this: does consuming carbohydrates during low-intensity sessions meaningfully reduce the fat-adaptation stimulus, or is this effect negligible in the bigger picture?

Example I am trying to understand:

• If I consume a large amount of simple sugar (e.g., candy) right before a session, my understanding is that this would strongly shift energy use toward carbohydrates and away from fat. Does this meaningfully reduce the training effect, or is it mostly a temporary shift without major long-term consequences?

Additional context:
I am not looking for advice on post-training nutrition. I already consume carbohydrates and protein after training and have no noticeable issues with recovery.

I am relatively young (20) and generally recover very well. I track basic metrics and feel consistently energetic. For example, during winter I have done multi-day blocks (3 consecutive days) with daily fasted sessions of ~2.5 hours without noticeable drops in recovery or performance. I am aware that this might not generalize, but in my case, I do not currently observe negative effects from fasted training.

At the moment, I usually wait ~2–3 hours after eating before starting a session. I even time this quite precisely, because I assumed insulin levels might matter. However, this makes my daily planning more complicated, so it would be very helpful to understand whether this is actually necessary or not.

Background:
I have been running consistently for ~4 years, more structured in the last year. For the past ~6 months I have focused almost exclusively on aerobic base training. My typical sessions are 1–2 hours in Zone 1–2, with occasional longer efforts. I recover well, sleep enough, and maintain adequate protein intake. I have read “Training for the Uphill Athlete” and “Training for the New Alpinism”.

I would really appreciate any input:

• Research papers
• Books
• Podcasts
• Articles
• Or coaching experience

Anything that helped you understand or apply this in practice would be very helpful.

Thank you!

Hi all! I'm starting week 10 of the 16-week Mountaineering Training Plan. My question is regarding the ME Uphill Weighted Hikes - the workout mentions 30%+ incline if using treadmills but the treadmills in my gym only go up to 15% incline and there are no stair climbers in the gym either, so is it okay if I perform these workouts at 15% incline? Would going heavier and/or faster compensate for the lack of incline and induce the desired training effect? Thank you in advance!

I’m just about ready to purchase the 20 week first ultra trail plan, and currently have two objectives lined up. My A race would be taking place October 4 and is 55k with 3600m elevation. I am also lining up for a 42k with 2200m elevation gain on August 8, thinking about it as a B objective (this race is at altitude, starting around 3300m and going to 4400m, so probably will be averaging a slower pace than normal)

I’m thinking about naturally choosing my October race as an end date and going back 20 weeks to start the plan. Would I need to factor in a couple of weeks of recovery after my August race or could it be integrated into the plan without modifying it much? What would be the best way to go about it?

In Pete Pfitzinger’s book “Advanced Marathoning”, he recommends adding 6bpm to HR zones for days where temps are in the 70s and 12bpm for days where temps are in the 80s “in order to get the same benefits as on a cool day” (ie if my Zone 2 is typically 135-150bpm, I would add 6bpm to make it 141-156bpm if it was 70-80 degrees out). I’m curious if this, or something similar, is something the Evoke coaches would recommend as well? Thanks!

This is probably highly personal but just in case this small data point is useful.

I've been consistently training and improving my aerobic capacity and doing strength as well. As a 32yo man, the latest AeT result was around 180. I was actually not sure about the number because it seemed too high, but anyway that session was using consistent intensity, with purely nasal breath. The main form of training is climbing an inclined treadmill. On real trails, I did feel easier, e.g. I once hiked on a peak from ~3000m up to ~4000m, with HR at 160, nose breathed all the way without rest.

Now I am in Nepal, ebc area. The HR with which I could nose breathe is much lower. I climbed lobuche east, 5000m - 6000m, and when my HR touched 165-175, I had to breathe very hard: no buff, push hard to inhale and exhale, usually using the mouth. Even at lower intensities, I often couldn't keep the buff on, or nose breathe. Instead I would only cover my mouth, use the nose to inhale and mouth to exhale. Breathing has become a limiting factor. I also guess that I became more reliant on sugar, because even after a big breakfast I still had that feeling of low energy on the way. I did drink a small amount of coke cola on the way up. Acclimatization was good, as I didn't have any symptoms like headache or lack of appetite. No DOMS afterwards at all.

Basically at this higher altitude, I have a strong feeling of being untrained. Not sure if it's just a lack of general fitness, or suboptimal acclimatization or what. I'm adding energy gels to my toolkit because energy chews helped a lot before I had any formal training, and gels might be easier to use at altitude.

I was diagnosed with sinus tachycardia. Will that affect my heart rate drift test?

TY

How to you perform a cycling Aet test? My running Aet is 135 for reference.

I have a reoccurring problem that is destroying my race experience: after 30-60 seconds of descending steep/technical terrain, I feel a pain starting in the chest and moving to the back and diaphragm or high abdominal area. The pain just gets worse over time as I continue running, and it feels like stabs with every step, almost feeling that the force of the ground is returning in this back-core area.

In my latest race this pain peaked up to a point that when I finished I could not breathe easily. After crossing the line, for the next 15mins I could not speak normally because I felt out of breath, and I continued to feel pain in the ribs in my back every time I took a breath for the next 2 hours. While it started reducing in intensity, the pain didn’t go away until I slept and woke the next day.

This race was 40km/2500mD+ and it was essentially 22km uphill, then 18km downhill. I reached the peak after 3h20min feeling incredible, I was trying to not push that much and was waiting for the downhill section to really push the pace. Instead, I ended up doing 1h50m for the descend, full of pain, almost in tears at some points, having to walk and had almost decided to DNF. Info about the race:

1. I was ascending the first 3h20mins with an average of 174bpm, which is the middle of my zone 3 (Aet=167, LT = 182) measured with a chest strap, zones determined with evoke's method.

2. I was feeling really good until the top, nutrition was as planned (90g carbs / 500mg sodium / 1liter water per hour)

3. the first 2kms of descend were extremely technical with 550mD- (28% incline)

I have had this issue for at least 1.5 year, happening only in races, never in training and cannot figure out what it is. If it's a problem of intensity being too hard and thus the cardiovascular system fails, why does this happen on these steep parts of the course? Could it be a muscle weakness on the core/back/chest?