u/Money-Ad8553

I mostly got into the Greek world through Rome, but I've always stayed very much Athens and Argos-friendly. I would explore the myths stemming more from Argos and the House of Atreus / Trojan War-Odyssey.

I decided to wander into the tragedians and poetry with one mission. Thebes.

I already know Sons Atreus and the early Argive myths, but not Thebes.

What a wild ride this city is. I mean the origin with Cadmus bearing the dragon's teeth and the Theban men spring into action, up comes this city of Thebes. Here we have the birth of Dionysus, god of wine, born of Zeus and Semele, daughter of Cadmus.

The wreckage of Pentheus, grandson of Cadmus, to the destructive torture of the Maenads.

Later we have the foul deeds of the Labdacids. Laius, who raped the son of Pelops, here a curse got placed and Laius was killed by his own son, Oedipus, who slept with his own mother. This man who blinded himself and went off in misery.

Then we get the iconic Seven Against Thebes and with the two brothers. This tragedy by Aeschylus is incredible. Euripides has a play on it and so does Statius of Rome.

And then lastly, the destruction of the city, the war of the Epigoni.

In this whole city's mythos, one character really clicked with me, Tiresias, the blind old sage that has lived for many generations. This Tiresias is very fascinating.

This observation pushes buttons, I know. My sources are primary and secondary.

Two key ones being Siren Feasts: A History of Food and Gastronomy in Greece (1996) by Andrew Dalby and tge Anonymous Expositio Totius Mundi et Gentium.

But it also makes sense logistically, Mediolanum was right in the Po valley, this is when we start seeing more butter, mead, etc...

Constantinople had seafood at their anonae, mackarels and sardines called tarichos. They had it quite well actually. Good wine too.

During the Pax Romana, Rome’s anonae massive flaws were hidden by a booming, unified economy.. But when we get to the age of Constantine, we start seeing this change.

The quality of food in Rome was largely low quality because of transit time, Mediolanum had local sources right there. Rome had so many people that the logistics to import all that wheat and even pork became very challenging. The grain frequently became infested with weevils and mold.

If you were a dependent in Rome, it would have been much better for you dump the city and go north to Milan. We see that even after the move to Ravenna, the city of Mediolanum had a strong anonae for a while.

Additional sources

Theodosian Code Book XIV

Feeding the Ancient City (1998) by Peter Garnsey

I'm mostly a Western scholar when it comes to this period, but I have heard some things along the lines of prejudices.

But also many people in the West thought that "marriage" into Ricimer ridiculous, folks in Rome hated Anthemius. Hated him. Another "Graeculus".

I know that the beloved Leo I has a special place in Byzantine history, but Im sort of curious why all the neglect here. Was there bigger fish to fry out east?

Also the Odoacer situation. I know! I get it. Flavius Orestes launched a coup with the help of the Goths against Nepos. I mean this right here is grounds for war.

What goes around comes back around, and he got overthrown by Odoacer who just gave Byzantium a thumbs up and here we transition to the Gothic era and its relations. This all sets the stage for the age of Justinian.

I heard that around this time, the 460s-470s, Constantinople was basically broke and that Zeno, the Isaurian outsider, basically couldn't give a hoot about Rome.

Im just trying to understand the details here since Im new to this subject.

This is, of course, in the 340s, the reign of Constans in the Latin-speaking West, where the ball really gets started.

It's often talked about how Constans himself was a Nicene-sympathizer and that here is when the Roman elite pivot to the Nicene Creed. The Anicii, Aurelii, Paulii, Aetii, and Plautii

If you were an average citizen in the city, a cobbler, a baker, a gambler in the Circus Maximus, your life was untouched by Athanasius, Julius, and their assistants. You can dance the cordax in the Floralia, worship Mithras and Isis, etc...

They focused on the mothers, daughters, and sisters of the men who were Senators and Patricians. The Patres Conscripti

Albina Ceionia, Marcella Marcia, Asella Marcia, Aetia Paula, Julia Toxotia, Blesilla Toxotia, Marcellina Aurelia (the sister of Ambrose), Melania Antonia, Anicia Faltonia, etc...

By embedding this intense, uncompromising Nicene and monastic identity into the hyper-wealthy senatorial women, they created a generational ticking time bomb. The little boys running around those patrician palaces in the 340s and 350s were being raised by mothers and big sisters who taught them that Jupiter, Juno, Mars, Minerva, etc... were demons and the cult of Arius was treason.

https://preview.redd.it/0exb0vqs7p1h1.png?width=1522&format=png&auto=webp&s=c840bbf2af147e2d5ca856700a8ee422d675b787

I've tried Parthian poultry, placenta cakes, Gallic pork, etc...

Ancient Egypt has a fascinated cuisine, desserts with dates and honey. Barley beer is also good.

I have been meaning to explore Classical Athenian cuisine and Hellenistic Alexandria too, but those are more niche. Mareotic wine is unfortunately extinct. This was a fascinating agricultural project the Ptolemies did. They cultivated wine in the Nile delta.

There's also ancient China with all these interesting bird dishes, etc...

I mostly specialize in late republic and early empire. So Im curious about learning more about this later era. I don't know the details, just broad points.

Couldn't anybody just say "I follow the God and tradition of the divine Constantine"

I mean after all, Constantine was an Arian, and so were his boys. Valentinian I was an Arian, and he was a stouch defender of the empire.

A lot of folks have told me that supporters of the Arian Creed were essentially seen as supporters of Goths, Vandals, and all those rustic soldier-kings that lived within the late western empire. That it was a conspiracy of Theodosius and Ambrose who presided over the boy emperors, Gratian and Valentinian II. The overthrow of the creed of Arius of Alexandria as the imperial religion.

The Nicene Creed won, it triumphed. Theodosius, father of Honorius and Arcadius, adopted an alliance with Ambrose, the bishop of Milan to do crackdowns on Arians.

Gratian, son of Valentinian I got murdered by Agasthius, and usurped by Magnus Maximus. What was he? a Nicene Christian. I mean this is something that really spooked the Western empire. Later on, the suicide of Valentinian II, the boy emperor who lived in the castle in the Gallic city of Vienna, guarded by Arbogast a polytheist, a follower of a Germanic pantheon.

Doesn't it not just seem a little bit of a coincidence that this is when Rome's biggest rivals become Arian as well? It was also a trinity-bias, wasn't it? You don't believe in this dad-son-ghost theology, you place dad above everything.

Theodosius didnt have patience with any of that and called for a strict edict to obey the decree of Athanasius of Alexandria or you'll be regarded as demented. dementes vesanosque

He was such an outsider tho and I don't know all the details of how this Arian Christian creed got overthrown. This was the religion doctrine of Constantine who supposedly freed the Christians of obeying the cult of the emperor and Deorum Romanorum.

But then, of course, even in the days of Constantine himself, the Nicene Creed was made the official Creed. So what gives? Why is this the official creed but the emperor and his family dont follow it?

Like I said, I mostly specialize in late republic and early empire, so excuse me for any misconceptions and mistakes. Cheers

I get the impression from this sub that many people see the early Roman empire as one big Disney world for everybody. The games, the festivals, the banquets, baths, theatres, etc...

One key thing we see in the early dynasties of the empire is the decline of shared spaces and public banquets.

Ulpian, Julius Paulus, Gaius, Papinian, etc... all record this bureaucratic backbone, and when the Edict of Caracalla came to pass, we see less of that old distinction of the Cives and Peregrini and more of the Honestiores and Humiliores. Not to mention other things like Patrons and Clients, Proletarii and Equestrians, etc...

The Baths became more segregated, so did the Piscina over there in Regio XII, the Portico Octaviae in Regio IX, the Campus Martius, and, of course, those big public banquets (epulae publicae). All those long wooden tables with hundreds of people eating sausages, bread, beans, stews, and new watered-down local wine. Later on, the elites and equestrians didn't even show up to these banquets. Martial's Epigram 3.60 gives us a glimpse also of the cenae that many clients had to go through.

>"You take oysters fattened in the Lucrine lake; I suck a mussel through a hole in the shell. You get mushrooms; I get hog-fungi. You compete with a turbot; I eat a brill. A golden bird fills your belly; a magpie died for me. Why do I dine without you, Ponticus, when I am dining with you?"

Juvenal's Satire 5 mentions a patron named Virro who humiliates his client Trebius by serving him trashy food. Extremely sour wine and disgusting hard moldy bread.

Lots of people depended on the annonae and those gift baskets, sportulae, lots of people lived in those crammed insulae on the periphery of the city.

This whole thing with voting Comitia, Tribune of the Plebs, Secessio Plebis, the right of Provocatio, the whole body of citizens eating together, etc... wasn't really a common thing in the empire.

Sure, things were better of in the 1st and 2nd centuries than the later 3rd-5th centuries.

Im not talking here about sales. The US is still very strong in sales. Im talking to the centers of discourse, the cutting-edge, the avant-garde.

I live in the US and I often feel like a fish in a specific water here. The water is the art of the Cold War era, the Basquiats, Harings, Lichtensteins, Pollocks, Rothkos, Frankenthalers, Motherwells, Rockwells, Calders, Jasper Johns, Frank Stella, etc... there is also this sort of apathy towards international artists, with the exception of a handful of English artists among a more boutique hotel crowd.

But when I leave the US, I cannot help but feel that this outside art world has more international dialogue, more cutting-edge artists, promotions, biennales, and everyday discussions.

Many Americans just seem oblivious to the emergence of Asia and European pluralism. Venice, Gwangju, Seoul, Berlin, Istanbul, Shanghai, Brussels, and even cities in Latin America like Mexico City and São Paulo. The status quo in the USA just seems to be praising the Cold War artists.

There is even the case of how many international galleries like Perrotin, Hauser & Wirth, etc... have played a role in New York, Miami and Los Angeles. Not just in having branches, but even participating in art fairs or loaning works for non-profit exhibitions.

I cannot help but feel that the US is "institutionalizing" itself with this 20th-century canon of artists. It doesn't seem like a cutting-edge laboratory of artists as much, or, at any rate, not as sharp and savvy a laboratory as other countries overseas.

Laius, the son of Labdacus, king of Thebes - The Labdacids.

He was taken out of Thebes as a baby during the usurpation of Lycus who got overthrown by the brothers, Amphion and Zethus.

He grows up under the house of Pelops as a guest and eventually gets a job teaching his son, Chrysippus. This was when supposedly Laius "falls in love with his beauty", and violated his person.

This outrageous act basically puts him in trouble and he gets a curse, which will unfold in Thebes as the Labdacid cycle.

Euripides did a play on this myth but we dont have it completely.

So this myth is often pointed to as homosexuality in Greek myth, but it's painted in a negative way, a rape, whereas Apollo and Hyacthincus is more loverboy, or Zeus and Ganymede more divine.

I was talking to a philhellene friend and he said "What we think of Hell is largely Roman", now I did some digging and saw presentations about the influence of jurisprudence and Etruscan terrors when it came to the Roman civilization.

These people, these Romans, who we read in Vergilius, Titus Livius, Marcus Cicero, Sallust, Tacitus, Caesar himself. They were folks that had quite a different approach to damnation and superstitions.

In the Greek world, we don't really have this frightening damning of the souls, malefactors and fornicators burned by demons! It's seen as silly, the afterlife is more like a waiting room.

The Nordics and Slavs don't really have this fiery world of torment and horrors either.

Basically, this fiery hell, this inferno, is largely a mix of Etruscan mythos and the legal culture of the Latin world itself. Basically Italic folk culture. Let's not forget the archaic Romans were very superstitious of omens and nightmarish things. Scary demons like the Lemures and Striges lurked around.

Did Rome establish this tradition for the Western Latin-script Europeans? If so, why was it so successful?

I was talking to a philhellene friend and he said "The Romans invented hell", now I did some digging and saw presentations about the influence of jurisprudence and Etruscan terrors when it came to the Roman civilization.

These people, these Romans, who we read in Vergilius, Titus Livius, Marcus Cicero, Sallust, Caesar himself. They were folks that had quite a different approach to damnation and superstitions.

In the Greek world, we don't really have this frightening damning of the souls, malefactors and fornicators burned by demons! It's seen as silly, too gaudy.

The Nordics and Slavs don't really have this fiery world of torment and horrors.

Basically, this fiery hell, this inferno, is largely a mix of Etruscan mythos and the legal culture of the Latin world itself. Basically Italic folk culture. Let's not forget the archaic Romans were very superstitious of omens and nightmarish things.

Did Rome establish this tradition for the Western world? If so, why was it so successful?