r/dietScience

▲ 3 r/dietScience+1 crossposts

Let me start by clarifying what I mean by “reactive.”

The CICO model treats the body as if it reacts to calorie availability in a direct, predictable, mechanical way. Less energy available means weight must go down. More energy available means weight must go up. Create a deficit, and fat loss must follow. Create a surplus, and fat gain must follow. Put the numbers into the calculator, and the body should obey.

That is the CICO model.

The body does not work that way.

The body is a dynamic, adaptive, living system that regulates its own energy economy. It does not passively receive calories and mechanically convert the difference into fat loss or fat gain. It changes fuel use. It changes expenditure. It changes efficiency. It changes how much energy is recycled, conserved, dissipated, mobilized, or stored.

That does not mean anyone is denying thermodynamics. That accusation is lazy and usually means the person does not understand the argument.

Energy conservation is real. Calories are energy. You cannot create energy from nowhere. You cannot spend energy without energy. Nobody serious is denying that.

But CICO is not thermodynamics. CICO is not a law. CICO is a model. It is disputed greatly upstream in clinical literature.

Thermodynamics says energy is conserved. It does not say a living organism must lose body fat in a clean, linear, predictable way because someone wrote a deficit into an app. It does not say every surplus calorie must be efficiently stored as body fat. It does not say the body has no regulatory systems.

That is the distinction CICO people keep dodging.

One of the cleanest examples is the lactate shuttle.

Most people think of exercise in false, grossly oversimplified terms: “I burned 400 calories, so I burned 400 calories worth of fat.” That is not how exercise metabolism works.

During exercise, lactate is often treated like a waste product. It is not. Lactate is usable fuel. Working muscle can produce lactate, but that lactate can circulate to other tissues, be converted back into pyruvate, and be used for energy. It can also help support glucose production through gluconeogenesis.

In plain English, the body can recycle a byproduct of exercise back into usable energy. It's not perpetual, but it sure as hell can dramatically reduce physical energy expenditure.

That alone breaks the simplistic version of “calories out.”

Exercise increases energy demand. That part is true. But increased demand does not mean the body must pull every missing calorie directly from body fat. The body can draw from glucose, glycogen, fatty acids, lactate, glycerol, ketones, amino acids, and other fuel intermediates. It can recycle lactate while the work is still happening. It can shift fuel sources depending on intensity, oxygen availability, hormonal state, and energy availability.

So “calories burned” is not the same thing as “fat mobilized.”

That is the first failure of the CICO model. It treats energy output like a clean withdrawal from stored fat, when the body is actually running a flexible fuel system.

Now flipside...

If energy is abundant, the body is not required to extract maximum usable energy from every recyclable substrate. It does not have to behave like a desperate survival machine trying to squeeze every last drop out of lactate recycling and fuel conservation. The body can afford to be less efficient.

That is the other side CICO people ignore.

Under lower-energy conditions, the body can recycle substrate and conserve energy more aggressively. Under higher-energy conditions, the body can become more wasteful. It can spend more energy processing food. It can produce more heat. It can increase spontaneous movement. It can route more energy through inefficient cycling. It can reduce the efficiency with which surplus intake becomes stored body fat.

Same body. Same laws of physics. Different biological state.

That is the point.

The body is not trying to satisfy a calorie calculator. It is trying to maintain stability.

This is why the popular CICO model fails. It assumes the body is reactive in a simple direction: deficit equals loss, surplus equals gain. But physiology is regulatory, not merely reactive. The body responds to low energy availability by conserving, recycling, reducing expenditure, increasing hunger, and making continued loss harder. It can respond to high energy availability by increasing waste, heat, movement, substrate cycling, and inefficiency.

Again, none of that violates thermodynamics.

This is thermodynamics running through biology.

And this is not just theoretical biochemistry. The clinical outcomes are obvious.

First, BMR downregulation exists. During caloric restriction and weight loss, energy expenditure can fall beyond what would be expected from tissue loss alone. That is adaptive thermogenesis. A smaller body costs less energy to maintain, yes, but the body also adapts regulatory systems in a way that pushes expenditure lower and hunger higher. That means the deficit written on paper is not necessarily the deficit the body continues to experience in reality.

Second, BMR is not perfectly predictable in the first place. Johnstone et al. directly measured basal metabolic rate and found that even after accounting for fat-free mass, fat mass, age, and other variables including leptin, 26% of BMR variance remained unexplained. Sex was not a significant predictor after adjustment. That is a direct problem for CICO. Those body's have adjusted to match it's energy available beyond what we fully understand as "predictable" or "expected".

Third, weight loss is non-linear. Static calorie rules fail because expenditure changes over time. Early loss slows. Maintenance calories shift. Activity costs change. Resting expenditure changes. A 500-calorie "deficit" does not remain a deficit forever just because an app keeps printing the same number. Purposeful overfeeding studies and general population intake show the same non-linear impacts of caloric increase resisting fat gain much more than expected as well. In other words, a "surplus" doesn't remain a surplus forever either. Meaning, there's ample clinical evidence the body resists weight change in both directions. Both with extensive, mechanistic, physiological explanations to explain the clinical outcomes.

That is just part of the evidence stack in plain terms. They demonstrate that the body has mechanisms that recycle, reroute, conserve, waste, and redistribute energy depending on context. The lactate shuttle is just one of many mechanistic responses that serves as a good example because it can impact both directions.

So when someone says, “CICO is just thermodynamics if you could do the math precisely,” they have no clue about the gamut of underlying physiological mechanisms of energy metabolism. Thermodynamics says energy is conserved. It does not say weight change is predictably determined by intake and expenditure arithmetic in a living organism. Those are not the same claim.

Energy balance is real. Calories matter. But CICO is bunk because it takes a dynamic, adaptive, substrate-recycling, expenditure-adjusting biological system and pretends it is a fixed math equation. The body is not a calorie calculator. It is a living system that regulates energy availability, and that is why CICO fails as a model.

References

Brooks GA. The science and translation of lactate shuttle theory. Cell Metab. 2018;27(4):757-785. doi:10.1016/j.cmet.2018.03.008

Emhoff CW, Messonnier LA, Horning MA, Fattor JA, Carlson TJ, Brooks GA. Direct and indirect lactate oxidation in trained and untrained men. J Appl Physiol (1985). 2013;115(6):829-838. doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.00538.2013.

Johnstone, Alexandra & Murison, Sandra & Duncan, Jackie & Watson, Kellie & Speakman, John. (2005). Factors influencing variation in basal metabolic rate include fat-free mass, fat mass, age, and circulating thyroxine but not sex, circulating leptin, or triiodothyronine. The American journal of clinical nutrition. 82. 941-8. 10.1093/ajcn/82.5.941.

Rosenbaum M, Leibel RL. 20 years of leptin: role of leptin in energy homeostasis in humans. J Endocrinol. 2014;223(1):T83-T96. doi:10.1530/JOE-14-0358.

Overfeeding studies: https://archive.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID08E/UID08E05.HTM

Hall KD, Sacks G, Chandramohan D, Chow CC, Wang YC, Gortmaker SL, Swinburn BA. Quantification of the effect of energy imbalance on bodyweight. Lancet. 2011;378(9793):826-837. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(11)60812-X.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 11 days ago

Welcome to my world, the NP-Hard problem, and the tragic nature of trying to help the world heal.

u/SirTalkyToo — 10 days ago

A good place to start is with the 1,200-calorie rule, because it is one of the clearest examples of diet culture repeating simplistic bullshit until people mistake it for science. In a massive amount of mainstream dieting discourse, 1,200 calories gets treated like some universal floor no one should ever cross, as if that number has magical physiological significance regardless of who you are. That is utter nonsense. It is ridiculous on its face to believe the same caloric floor should apply equally to a 5'0", 120-pound sedentary individual and a six-foot-something muscular beast who lifts every day. That is not evidence-based reasoning. That is not nuance. That is not physiology. It is a lazy one-size-fits-all rule repeated so often that people stop questioning it.

Nothing in the clinical literature supports the idea that one fixed caloric floor makes equal sense across radically different body sizes, activity levels, lean mass, energy expenditure, and weight-loss contexts. Yet the rule persists everywhere, enforced like dogma, repeated by people who want simple answers, and defended as if challenging it is somehow irresponsible. That persistence is not a reflection of strong science. It is a reflection of how badly this field confuses blunt public messaging with actual truth.

What makes it worse is that lower-calorie approaches are often not just questioned, but flat-out demonized, as if the moment intake drops below some culturally approved number you have automatically entered dangerous territory. That framing is deeply misleading. It takes a crude rule of thumb and turns it into a fake law of human metabolism. It shuts down thought, narrows options, and teaches people to fear tools that may be highly effective, clinically supported, and entirely appropriate in the right context.

Safety is paramount throughout this book and all my dietary guidance. But treating safety seriously does not mean pretending severe caloric deprivation is generally harmful or inherently produces detrimental health outcomes. It does not. The evidence is clear, extensive, and strong enough that this is not some fringe or speculative position. That is not the same as saying there are no risks, that it is optimal for everyone, or that it should be used carelessly. It means it should not be disparaged in general simply because people are uncomfortable with it.

Part of the problem is that the public-facing narrative often does not match what happens behind the curtain. The same medical and mainstream culture that often frames severe caloric deprivation as dangerous or irresponsible will still use it when rapid weight loss is needed before interventions such as bariatric surgery. That contradiction matters. In many of those cases, the people undergoing the intervention carry more baseline risk than an otherwise healthy person would, yet the methodology is still accepted when the system decides it is useful. Then outside that setting, the same basic approach is often treated like reckless nonsense. That is not a scientifically honest standard.

I am beating this point early for a reason. I am not trying to sell you this book at any cost. I am trying to make it clear, upfront, whether this book is even for you. I do not want you getting halfway through, hitting something you strongly reject, and then writing off the rest of the material as another failure, another false start, or another thing that did not work for you. I care too much about what is at stake to do that. Even if you reject this material, I still give a fuck about what happens to you, and I am not willing to hide the hard truths just to keep you reading. That is not who I am. If this book is wrong for you, I would rather make that plain now than let you walk deeper into something you were never actually willing to hear, because when people keep failing with weight loss, the cost is not abstract. It can hurt them badly.

The truth is that some facts are uncomfortable. If you are not getting the long-term results you want, and you have never been willing to consider severe caloric deprivation, then this material may force you to confront that reality. That does not mean it is the only path. It is not. I fully emphasize throughout this book that sustainability and cumulative progress matter more than rapid results by themselves. But that is a separate issue from refusing to accept what the evidence shows simply because you do not want that option on the table.

There is no false hope here. No clickbait. No secret trick being held back until the final chapter. Many people are using broken, ineffective methods, and the diet world is tribal enough in some corners to function like a cult. This book is only for you if you are willing to confront the science, the facts, and the reality of your own results. Clear evidence matters. Your progress matters. And if your progress is not there, that matters too.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 14 days ago

If you are struggling to lose weight, one of the most important things you can do is stop guessing and find out whether insulin resistance is part of the problem. This is one of the most critical “small things” in the chapter because failing to check for it can distort everything that comes after. If insulin resistance is present, it can make hunger worse, energy less stable, ketosis harder to reach, fat mobilization less efficient, and weight loss slower and more frustrating than it should be. That does not make fat loss impossible. It means the body is working under a condition that makes effective fat access harder than it should be.

A lot of people still think weight loss is just a matter of reducing calories and waiting long enough. That is incomplete. Lower intake only helps if the body can actually access stored energy well enough to compensate. When fat mobilization is working properly, reduced intake encourages the body to release and burn stored fat. When fat mobilization is impaired, the experience changes. The person cuts calories, but the body does not shift cleanly into using its own stored fuel. Hunger tends to stay higher. Fatigue becomes more common. Energy becomes less stable. The process feels harder because it is harder. This is one of the reasons insulin resistance matters so much. It does not just affect blood sugar. It affects whether the body can efficiently let go of stored fat in the first place.

Under normal conditions, insulin falls between meals and during fasting, which allows stored fat to be released and used for energy. But in insulin resistance, insulin tends to remain elevated more than it should. That continued signal suppresses lipolysis, slows fat mobilization, and keeps the body biased toward storage when it should be shifting harder toward fuel use. In practical terms, this means the person may lose weight more slowly than expected, may struggle to generate much ketosis, and may continue feeling metabolically trapped even while trying to diet. This is one of the main reasons some people do not just need better discipline. They need one of the biggest metabolic obstacles identified and addressed directly.

This is why testing matters. While there are other tests that can provide broader metabolic or cardiovascular context, insulin resistance is too important to leave unchecked. If it is there, and you are still guessing instead of verifying, then one of the most important factors affecting fat loss, energy stability, and metabolic progress is still being left to assumption. This is not a minor detail. It is one of the biggest physiological obstacles in the entire process, and removing the guesswork around it can eliminate a huge amount of wasted time, frustration, and confusion.

Testing insulin resistance is simple. You can easily test fasting glucose and A1c with your healthcare provider or even schedule labs yourself. You can also do a glucose tolerance test (GTT). While a glucose tolerance test is often mostly associated with gestational diabetes screening, it is especially useful here because it can reflect more recent change than A1c and give a clearer sense of whether meaningful improvement is actually happening. That is the point. This is not some advanced medical hurdle. It is basic verification, and it is far easier than spending months stalled, frustrated, and confused while one of the most important parts of the problem remains unexamined.

For those who want to approximate a GTT at home without consuming straight corn syrup, it is possible to create a simplified version. This process begins with an overnight fast of 8 to 12 hours, during which only water should be consumed. After the fast, measure your fasting blood glucose using a reliable glucometer. Next, consume a known quantity of easily digestible carbohydrates, ideally low in fat and fiber to mimic the rapid absorption of pure glucose. Options include two to three slices of white bread, about one and a half cups of cooked white rice, or a homemade solution using glucose tablets or dextrose powder mixed in water. The latter two options most closely resemble the clinical test while avoiding corn syrup.

After consuming the carbohydrate source, measure your blood glucose at 30 minutes, one hour, and two hours. Under normal circumstances, blood glucose should peak by 30 to 60 minutes and return close to baseline by the two-hour mark. If levels remain elevated–above roughly 140 mg/dL at the two-hour measurement–it may suggest impaired glucose tolerance, but this should always be confirmed with a clinical test. It’s also essential to avoid including high-fat or high-protein foods with the carbohydrate source, as they slow glucose absorption and can skew the results. While this home method can give useful insight, it is not a substitute for formal medical testing, and any concerning results should be discussed with a healthcare provider.

If insulin resistance is there, then that should shape strategy. The priority is not simply to eat less and wait. The priority is to improve the metabolic condition that is interfering with fat access, energy stability, and appetite regulation. Weight loss still matters, but the order of operations matters too. Addressing insulin resistance first is not a distraction from fat loss. In many cases it is what makes better fat loss possible in the first place. This is where a lot of people get the process backwards. They keep trying to force fat loss while ignoring one of the biggest metabolic conditions affecting whether fat loss will work properly in the first place. Then they wonder why the process feels harder than it should.

This is one reason very low-energy diets (VLEDs) deserve far more respect than they usually get. VLEDs are not fringe. They are one of the most studied aggressive dietary interventions in the clinical literature. They have strong evidence for safety, strong evidence for weight loss, and strong evidence for rapid metabolic improvement. They are not magic, and they are not exempt from the need for nutritional adequacy and good implementation. But the basic idea is simple: a VLED is strong enough to attack both problems at once. It reduces energy intake enough to drive substantial fat loss, and it reduces insulin burden enough to improve insulin sensitivity far more quickly than weaker approaches tend to. That is the point. It is not just a weight-loss strategy. It is a metabolic intervention.

That speed matters. In some people with lesser degrees of dysfunction, meaningful reversal can begin appearing in as little as 4 weeks. But the stronger remission and reversal literature more often clusters around 12–16 weeks. That is the real point. VLEDs are capable of producing a fast, decisive physiological shift rather than a slow drift in the right direction. They lower insulin aggressively enough to improve insulin sensitivity, accelerate the move toward fat use and ketosis, and break harder from the metabolic conditions that helped sustain the problem in the first place.

This is where traditional and keto-style approaches need to be judged honestly. Some people do improve with them, but the stronger remission signal there tends to cluster around 6 months, not in the much shorter time frame seen with VLEDs. That matters because it makes VLEDs objectively superior when the goal is to produce a faster and more decisive metabolic shift. Lower-intensity methods may still help some people, but they are generally slower, less forceful, and less likely to change direction quickly when substantial insulin resistance is present.

While it cannot be said that traditional methods never lead to remission after 6 months, if meaningful change has not occurred during the intervention period, the likelihood of it appearing later without stronger intervention is very low. Expecting otherwise would be like expecting additional weight loss after ending the treatment that was supposed to produce it.

That does not mean everyone must use a VLED. It means people should stop pretending all dietary strategies are equal when they are not. If someone is substantially insulin resistant, and especially if fat loss has been unusually hard, energy has been unstable, ketosis has been weak, or glycemic markers remain poor, then using a harder intervention first may make far more sense than spending months hoping a softer one will eventually produce the same result. Sometimes the “small thing” is not minor at all. Sometimes it is identifying the central obstacle and treating it seriously enough to stop wasting time.

If insulin resistance is present, it can sabotage the rest of the plan while the person blames themselves, blames the diet, or keeps searching for a more clever explanation. But this is not some deep, unsolvable mystery.

If you keep crashing because you refuse to look behind you before backing up your vehicle, the issue is not bad luck. It is not bad genetics or an “act of God” either. You’re ignoring the biggest risk in the entire process that can be identified with basic steps. It also likely means you’re ignoring other important factors and much of the continued frustration is self-inflicted. You are choosing guesswork over verification, delay over clarity, and continued struggle over a problem that may be far simpler to identify than you are willing to admit.

Take the simple steps. Get tested. No excuses. If you keep failing while refusing to verify one of the most important variables in the process, that is on you.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 12 days ago
▲ 3 r/dietScience+1 crossposts

Stored fat is only useful if the body can release it. In a normal fasting state, insulin falls, lipolysis rises, stored triglycerides are broken down, glycerol is sent to the liver, and free fatty acids are released into circulation to be oxidized for energy. Insulin resistance disrupts that shift. When insulin remains inappropriately elevated, fat breakdown stays more suppressed than it should, storage remains favored over release, and adipose tissue holds on to energy that should be entering circulation. This is the opening metabolic problem. Insulin resistance is not just a glucose problem. It is a fuel-access problem. A person may be eating less, but if stored energy remains harder to mobilize, the deficit becomes much harder to cover cleanly from internal fuel.

That is why a calorie deficit on paper does not always translate cleanly into fat loss in practice. The deficit only works smoothly when stored energy can be mobilized to cover the gap left by reduced intake. If fat mobilization is blunted, intake falls while fuel release remains restricted. Stored energy is present, but access to it is impaired. Elevated insulin keeps triglycerides from being broken down effectively, so adipose tissue holds on to energy that should be released during fasting or between meals. This is one of the main reasons insulin resistance can make fat loss feel disproportionately difficult. The problem is not simply that excess energy is present. It is that the body is worse at getting to it when conditions require it.

That impaired fuel access also affects the transition into ketosis. Ketosis depends on prior fat mobilization. Free fatty acids have to be released first, delivered to the liver, and increasingly used as glucose availability falls. If that upstream release is impaired, the downstream shift is delayed with it. Insulin resistance therefore does not just slow fat loss in a vague sense. It slows the handoff from greater glucose dependence to greater reliance on fat-derived fuel. Ketosis is not triggered by effort or by the mere absence of food. It is the downstream result of a successful shift in fuel handling. Insulin has to fall, adipose tissue has to release fatty acids, and the liver has to convert enough of that incoming fat into ketone bodies to begin covering the energy gap. When insulin resistance interferes with that sequence, the problem is not a lack of stored energy. The problem is delayed access to it.

That delay has practical consequences. In a more insulin-sensitive state, the shift away from incoming glucose and toward stored fat is cleaner. In an insulin-resistant state, the body remains more dependent on glucose for longer while being less prepared to replace that glucose with fat-derived fuel. This is poor metabolic flexibility in practice. The person is not just carrying excess stored energy. The person is worse at switching to it. That is one reason moderate restriction so often produces less meaningful change than people expect. If insulin resistance is already suppressing fat mobilization hard enough to delay the transition into ketosis, then modest deficits often do not create enough physiological pressure to break that pattern decisively. Weight may still go down, but often more slowly, less substantially, and with far less metabolic improvement than people expect.

This is where aggressive restriction becomes more consequential. Insulin resistance can delay entry into meaningful ketosis and make the early phase of severe caloric restriction or prolonged fasting substantially harder. The system is being pushed away from incoming food, but it is not yet efficient at running on stored fat and ketones instead. Glucose reliance remains elevated while ketone availability lags behind. That mismatch is not a minor inconvenience. It is a transitional fuel deficit. The body is being asked to function with less incoming energy before it has gained reliable access to internal replacement fuel. That is the real significance of delayed ketosis in insulin resistance. It is not just that ketones appear later on a meter. It is that the body remains trapped longer in an unstable middle state, no longer being fed normally but not yet fully able to support itself from stored fat.

That is also where the safety issue begins. When insulin resistance is present, aggressive regimens are not just harder. They are less stable. Blood glucose is already poorly controlled in the fed state, which is why insulin-resistant people tend to spike higher and faster after carbohydrate intake. But the problem does not disappear when food is removed. It changes form. Once intake drops sharply, glucose can also become less stable on the way down, especially before fat mobilization and ketone production are strong enough to cover the gap. The immediate danger is in that transition. The person remains more glucose-dependent while losing reliable access to both dietary glucose and internal replacement fuel. This is why early symptoms tend to appear sooner and hit harder in insulin-resistant people.

Fatigue, dizziness, shakiness, irritability, brain fog, headaches, and migraines are not random discomforts in that setting. They are signs that the fuel transition is not going well. As the mismatch worsens, sweating, nausea, visual disturbance, confusion, and severe weakness can follow. At the far end, the danger is impaired judgment, loss of coordination, fainting, seizures, or loss of consciousness. Glucose can fall low enough that severe symptoms develop before fat mobilization and ketone availability are sufficient to compensate. This is where people make a serious mistake. They treat escalating symptoms as if they are only electrolyte problems and tell others to push through them. That is dangerous. Electrolytes do not fix impaired fuel access, delayed ketosis, or a worsening hypoglycemic state. Once symptoms begin escalating, this is no longer about discomfort tolerance. It is a developing safety problem that can become life-threatening.

This is why very-low-energy diets matter so much in this context. They can drive substantial weight loss and substantial metabolic improvement in a more controlled way than full prolonged fasting. That does not make them easy. It makes them more appropriate as an initial strategy when insulin resistance is significant. Before the body can tolerate a harder transition safely, it often first needs enough metabolic improvement to stop fighting that transition so hard. That is also why these interventions matter beyond simple calorie reduction. They do not just reduce body fat. They can help break the metabolic pattern that was interfering with fat mobilization in the first place. They address excess fat mass and insulin resistance together instead of forcing people to wait through months of weaker change that may not be strong enough to meaningfully move either one.

None of this means insulin resistance makes progress impossible. It means the problem has to be understood correctly. Once it is understood as a fuel-access problem, a delayed-ketosis problem, and a safety problem during aggressive transitions, the logic of intervention becomes much clearer. The goal is not to avoid strong interventions. It is to use them intelligently. That is the positive side of this entire discussion. Insulin resistance is a serious obstacle, but it is not a mystery and it is not untouchable. It can be identified, it can be addressed, and it can improve substantially when the intervention is strong enough and used seriously. The better this is understood, the less likely people are to waste time on weak approaches, ignore warning signs, or treat dangerous symptoms as something to push through. Knowledge here is not just useful. It is protective.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 11 days ago

There's a massive misconception that health changes produces health outcomes: that's patently false as a generality and why moderation fails more than not. The body actually wants to be stable and it naturally resists changes as its default behavior.

Force isnt movement. If your health issue is a heavy block, you can push on it with real actions and improvements, but if the force isn't strong enough to overcome the resistance then it won't move.

Clinical outcomes consistently, repeatedly, and strongly demonstrate this. Moderate "deficits". Intermittent fasting. Moderate excercise. On their own they do almost nothing. Combined they only produce a little.

There's a massive amount of physiology to discuss to explain why, to include epigenetics, and I'm not going to here: that's hundreds of pages to explain and defend adequately. This is where the clinical outcomes matter so much. And those aren't disputable.

This is why "extreme" methods like VLEDs and prolonged fasting aren't exactly extremes: they're often necessary as essential tools for health changes.

If you reject this, here's the tragic irony: it validates your struggle. You're not lazy or broken. Its not "put down the fork". There is real, legitimate resistance even when trying hard.

You've just been handed a broken calculator. And you're being blamed when the numbers don't add up.

That doesn't mean moderate tools have no value. And for those without major health issues they can be a great, sustainable tool. But there are no golden hammers. People need different tools. Moderation doesn't work for everyone.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 14 days ago

Overview

Autophagy is one of the most misrepresented topics in the context of fasting. Its complexity and nuance leave ample room for clickbait and so-called “profound realizations.” As a result, a wide range of half-truths are often presented with unwarranted confidence, backed by selective scientific references that are advertised as absolute certainty. Fortunately, autophagy is a topic that can be simplified in a practical manner, and people shouldn’t get caught up in the hype or misled by sensational claims.

Terminology

Autophagy is a vital cellular process through which cells degrade and recycle their own components to maintain homeostasis, especially during stress or nutrient deprivation. The term “autophagy” literally means “self-eating,” and it involves the formation of double-membraned vesicles called autophagosomes that engulf damaged organelles, misfolded proteins, or other cellular debris. These autophagosomes then fuse with lysosomes, where the contents are broken down by enzymes and their building blocks–such as amino acids, lipids, and sugars–are released back into the cytoplasm for reuse. This process not only helps clear damaged or toxic components from cells but also provides essential materials for energy production and biosynthesis during times of need. Autophagy plays crucial roles in development, immune responses, and disease prevention, particularly in conditions like cancer, neurodegeneration, and infections. When properly regulated, autophagy contributes to cellular health and longevity; however, its dysfunction can lead to a range of pathologies.

Discussion

Autophagy increases progressively with caloric and nutrient deprivation, accumulating over time; however, this upregulation has physiological limits, as hormones such as insulin and others that regulate autophagic pathways can only be suppressed to a certain threshold.

It is important to recognize that intermittent fasting (IF) windows do not elicit the same magnitude or duration of autophagic activity as longer, prolonged fasts. Even if autophagy peaks around 16 hours, individuals engaging in extended fasting sustain these elevated levels for significantly longer periods. Therefore, the assertion that IF induces autophagy to the same extent as prolonged fasting is demonstrably incorrect.

That said, autophagic activity begins to taper around day five, indicating that extending fasts beyond this point confers diminishing returns with respect to autophagy. This introduces a nuanced consideration in determining whether periodic prolonged fasting or frequent IF offers greater benefits, as the optimal strategy likely resides in a balance between the two approaches.

Debates regarding autophagy without direct, measurable data are unproductive. If IF provides sufficient autophagy benefits for your health and fits your lifestyle, it is reasonable to continue advocating for it. However, claiming IF is equivalent or superior to prolonged fasting in delivering health benefits related to autophagy is scientifically inaccurate.

Prolonged fasting amplifies and extends the autophagic benefits initiated by IF, but ultimately, the most effective approach is the one that is sustainable over the long term. If IF is more compatible with your lifestyle, it is advisable to adhere to it while acknowledging the current scientific evidence.

Fundamentals

All metabolic processes are influenced by nutrition. Claiming that autophagy is promoted by certain nutritious foods is about as obvious as saying that all cells need energy. Like any metabolic process, autophagy functions best when the body has sufficient stored nutrients to support optimal pathways. However, having the necessary nutrients–or consuming the ones involved in the process–does not trigger autophagy itself!

Autophagy is a continuous process that never fully stops.

In general, autophagy is regulated by factors such as insulin levels and nutrient intake. It doesn’t suddenly start or completely shut off at any point. This means that fasting does not abruptly “activate” autophagy, nor does eating instantly “deactivate” it. However, fasting does accelerate the autophagic response more effectively than other methods, while increased food intake tends to suppress it.

Autophagy is also highly cell-type specific. Different tissues–such as organs, muscle, bone, and neurons–exhibit distinct mechanisms and metabolic triggers for autophagy. While there are overlapping features, these processes are not universally identical across all cell types.

Many autophagy studies are conducted in mice and other laboratory animals. Measuring autophagy often requires invasive methods, and artificially manipulating the process can carry risks. While these animal studies provide valuable insights, directly applying their findings to humans is misleading at best. The complex biological differences between species mean that conclusions drawn from animal research don’t always translate accurately to human health and disease.

That said, this doesn’t mean human research on autophagy is nonexistent. There are numerous studies that use biomarkers and even biopsies in human trials to measure autophagy more directly. However, because of the challenges involved, many studies still combine data from both animal and human experiments when drawing conclusions.

Current studies suggest that autophagy begins to increase significantly between 16 and 24 hours of fasting, with some reports indicating as early as 12 hours. The process appears to peak around 72 hours before tapering off. In other words, autophagy is an S-curve that is minimal until up to around 24 hours of significant caloric deprivation and tapers off after multiple days. However, it’s important to remember that much of this data is derived from, or heavily influenced by, animal studies.

Because autophagy is minimal in a fed state, the initial rise is sometimes marketed as the most significant. However, this increase is only significant from a relative perspective–for example, going from 1% to 20% is a 20-fold increase, but an increase from 20% to 80% is far more meaningful in absolute terms. This is often how the timing of the autophagic response is manipulated to suggest that short-term IF windows are "just as beneficial" as prolonged fasting, but they aren't. That’s not to say you can’t maintain healthy autophagic function without prolonged fasting, but it’s clear that prolonged fasting induces a greater autophagic response than typical IF.

By days four or five of prolonged fasting, autophagic activity plateaus as the pool of readily degradable damaged proteins, dysfunctional organelles, and other cellular debris becomes substantially reduced. Concurrently, the organism transitions into a more energy-conserving metabolic state characterized by enhanced reliance on ketone bodies for cerebral and systemic energy demands, a marked attenuation of proteolysis to preserve lean body mass, and overall optimization of metabolic efficiency.

Autophagy is an energetically costly process involving the formation, trafficking, and lysosomal degradation of autophagosomes, and thus its sustained activation imposes significant bioenergetic demands. As substrate availability declines due to prior clearance, autophagic flux naturally diminishes. Additionally, hormonal adaptations during prolonged fasting–namely, increased secretion of growth hormone, suppressed insulin levels, and alterations in hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis hormones such as cortisol–collectively act to inhibit excessive muscle protein catabolism and modulate autophagic pathways.

Prolonged elevation of autophagy carries the theoretical risk of autophagic cell death or detrimental degradation of essential cellular components. Therefore, regulatory feedback mechanisms likely downregulate autophagy after the initial robust activation phase to maintain cellular homeostasis. This modulation ensures autophagy continues at basal or moderate levels sufficient for quality control and turnover but prevents excessive self-digestion.

Hence, the dynamic regulation of autophagy during extended fasting reflects a complex integration of nutrient sensing, hormonal signaling, and energy balance, fine-tuning the balance between cellular repair and preservation to optimize organismal survival.

Deep Dive

The primary metabolic signal regulating autophagy during prolonged fasting and reductions in insulin is the mechanistic target of rapamycin, or mTOR. mTOR functions as a central cellular nutrient sensor that integrates signals related to energy status, growth factors like insulin, and nutrient availability.

When insulin and other growth-promoting signals are abundant–such as after eating–mTOR activity is high, which suppresses autophagy to prioritize growth and energy storage. During fasting, insulin levels drop, and energy stress increases, leading to a reduction in mTOR activity. This decrease acts as a green light for autophagy, allowing cells to initiate the breakdown and recycling of damaged proteins, organelles, and other cellular components.

This process helps maintain cellular health and supports metabolic adaptation during nutrient scarcity. While mTOR is a key regulator, autophagy is also influenced by other pathways, including AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), which senses cellular energy levels, and various upstream signals that together fine-tune the balance between growth and repair.

This metabolic pathway is the same signal that is used in strength training to prevent autophagic processes from targeting muscle mass. During resistance exercise, the activation of mTOR plays a crucial role in promoting muscle protein synthesis and growth. When you engage in strength training, mechanical stress and nutrient availability stimulate mTOR signaling, which shifts the cellular focus toward building and repairing muscle tissue rather than breaking it down.

By activating mTOR, strength training effectively suppresses autophagy in muscle cells, preventing excessive degradation of muscle proteins. This balance ensures that muscle mass is preserved or increased, even under conditions where the body might otherwise initiate autophagy to recycle cellular components.

In this way, mTOR serves as a key molecular switch that integrates environmental cues–such as nutrient intake and physical activity–to regulate whether cells prioritize growth and maintenance or engage in catabolic processes like autophagy. This delicate regulation allows the body to adapt efficiently to different metabolic states, whether during fasting or exercise.

This example of how autophagy can be both activated and suppressed depending on tissue type and physical activity is just one of many nuanced complexities often overlooked–or even flat out ignored–in mainstream conversations. Autophagy is not a simple on-or-off process that affects all cells uniformly; rather, it is tightly regulated in a context-dependent manner to meet the specific needs of different tissues and metabolic states.

For instance, while fasting may promote autophagy in the liver or brain to clear damaged components and support cellular renewal, the same fasting state combined with resistance training may simultaneously suppress autophagy in muscle tissue to preserve or build muscle mass. Additionally, factors such as nutrient availability, hormonal signals, exercise type, and intensity further modulate autophagy’s activity across the body.

Understanding these intricacies is crucial, especially when applying knowledge of autophagy to health, aging, or fitness. Simplistic narratives often fail to capture this dynamic regulation, which can lead to misunderstandings about the benefits or potential drawbacks of fasting, exercise, or other interventions targeting autophagy.

References

Shabkhizan R, Haiaty S, Moslehian MS, et al. The Beneficial and Adverse Effects of Autophagic Response to Caloric Restriction and Fasting. Adv Nutr. 2023;14(5):1211-1225. doi:10.1016/j.advnut.2023.07.006

Longo VD, Mattson MP. Fasting: molecular mechanisms and clinical applications. Cell Metab. 2014;19(2):181-192. doi:10.1016/j.cmet.2013.12.008

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u/SirTalkyToo — 14 days ago

I just wanted to first say I value you being here. You have been lead astray. You have been given falsehoods. You have had profit over people dominating the narrative.

So here it goes.

This is the secret you must know. You need to know. The secret they've all been hiding from you.

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There are no secrets. The physiology is known. Anything claiming to be a secret is bullshit.

If its not in clinical science and known physiology, its bunk. If its in clinical literature, it's not a secret.

Stop looking for magic tricks. Stop watching videos. Stop listening to influencers.

Start reading clinical studies.

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u/SirTalkyToo — 11 days ago

I have had issues with refeeding after extended fasts (5-7 day fasts). I refeed for a minimum of half my fasting period before starting a new fast.

However, I have always felt sick/under the weather when refeeding. I usually refeed with simple foods like yogurt, broth, eggs, and things like cereal and fruit or a deli sandwich. ~2000 calories per day. Am I doing something wrong? Should I eat Keto when I refeed or something? Should my minimum refeed period be longer?

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u/National_Molasses9 — 9 days ago