r/TurkicHistory

Born from the Barlas Mongol tribe. His ancestry hails from Mongolia that settled in Uzbekistan that likely intermixed with other Turkic and Iranic people.

This is the most accurate in terms of facial features and bone structure, as it is made from exactly from the face reconstruction of Timur by Soviet anthropologist that shows he was predominant East Asian Mongoloid.

" Timur's body was exhumed from his tomb on 19 June 1941 and his remains examined by the Soviet anthropologists Mikhail M. Gerasimov, Lev V. Oshanin and V. Ia. Zezenkova. Gerasimov reconstructed the likeness of Timur from his skull and found that his facial characteristics displayed "typical Mongoloid features", i.e. East Asian in modern terms. An anthropologic study of Timur's cranium shows that he belonged predominately to the "South Siberian Mongoloid type". At 5 feet 8 inches (173 centimeters) "

Every other AI image generated of Timur was not from the original reconstruction

ABOUT HIS HAIR COLOR

Anthropologist also said he also had red beard and red hair but it was more like a mix of with red and dark brown(black/brown shade) and grey It was confirmed to be dark auburn / copper-brown or a mix of red, brown and grey rather that some Scottish, Irish type red hair. It's still considered ginger by modern definition

HERE ARE SHADES OF ALL RED HAIR COLOR (So Timur belong to the last bottom two)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Shades_of_Red.svg/1280px-Shades_of_Red.svg.png

His hair was "primarily a mix of red, dark brown, and grey, with a reddish-grey beard " while his beard is like mix of red and grey.

Some occasional Mongols, Turkic, East Siberians, Hmong, Miao people, Himalayan Tibetan, Chinese Mountain people living in high altitude are all Mongoloid feature people that can sometimes light hair/eyes, strands of reddish hair, blonde hair and colored eyes too and all look East Asian at the same time They Pure, Almost Pure, Predominant East Asian. It's just mainstream East Asians who don't have it except for those who are albino, heterochromia or have pigmentation disease or even from malnutrition can altered eye/haircolor.

Also some half Asians like Andrew Koji, the guy cast to play the popular upcoming street fighter Ryu is born to Japanese father and English mother (or English/Italian mother) he has red beard and his hair is dyed black hair, his hair is sometimes brown with reddish copper depending on the lightning on TV screen. His eyes look brown and sometimes green (sometimes green/brown mix)

https://i.ibb.co/KjtZkFqn/l-intro-1627235996-1.jpg

Or this boy, his Asian father is black hair/brown eyes and mother is Dutch red hair, green eyes and the kid has red hair green eyes.

https://i.ibb.co/bgLbQpCr/main-qimg-0977591a93a8fe6567017ed4bca5497d-lq.jpg

It can happen from pure 100% Asian parents. Timur's hair most likely like this. Both are Hmong-Chinese born with reddish hair mixed born from black hair Asian parents

https://www.tiktok.com/@bbowowiee/video/7596786529113099550

Apparently, this sample is dated to 1150 AD. She has the mtDNA H1+152. She has about 25% East Asian admixture.

https://x.com/ZenciGotluAdam/status/2045108462657347826

https://x.com/cicikus275/status/2045244437769445582

Turkman is a southern dialect of Azerbaijan Turkic of the Oghuz group

The photo was taken in the 1980s in front of a Soyuz rocket in Baikonur, Kazakhstan (where "Socialist NASA" was located), a world-famous city. This photo made me think: the last Turkic-Islamic powers in history, the Qajars, the Mughals, and the Ottomans, instead of keeping up with innovations and new trends like Europe in their mid-to-late period, lagged behind the times due to religious and political influences, and I think the main reason for the collapse of our empires began from here. If you are not at the forefront of science, you will fall behind the world, because science and modernization are the foundation of everything.

From medieval Mongolia during times of earliest Gokturks and earliest Uyghurs

This is DNA study of early medieval Turks of Mongolia. From the 6th-7th century of Mongolia and later other territories, but mostly from Mongolia. Samples are 9 male/females of Gokturks Eastern Turkic Khaganate from all parts of Mongolia, later Altai, China and 9 males/females of Uyhuir Khaganate from all parts of Mongolia.

Results

Genetics of Eastern Turkic Khaganate 5 males and 4 females (Eastern Gokturks) were basically 76-98% East Asian/East Eurasian ( Ancient Northeast Asian and Yellow river ), 4 samples show 98% East Asian, 1 show 96% East Asian, 4 shows 76-80% East Asian

Genetics of Uyghur Khanagate of 3 Uyghur male and 7 Uyghur females. Overall they were were basically 44-100% East Asian. Three Uyghur females being 43-57% west eurasian,, three Uyghur females 78-82% East Asian, three Uyghur males show 81-100% East Asian.

ANA is Northeast Asian, Han is Yellow river, BMC is Bactracia, Andronovo is Andronovo.

ANA in green = Known as Ancient Northeast Asian. Is the DNA most common in East Siberian and Tungustic, Mongolic people, Turkic. Like Yakuts, Chelkans, Buryats Altai, Tuvan, Tungustic, (70-99%) ect, Mongols ect, Northern Central Asian Turkic (55-60%), and to some extend Northern Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Manchus (23-31%)

Han in yellow = Known as Yellow river DNA. Most common in Han Chinese, Tibetans, Qinghai Northern Sino-Tibetan people and Northern Tibeto-Burmese (70%). Partly in Central Asian Turkic (20%), (Japanese 40%+), Koreans (35%+), Manchus (30%+), Mongolians 27%). However please understand that this DNA shouldn't just be associated with Chinese, even though they linguistically and genetically related to Chinese. For example the Gokturk paternal with D1a-M174, would have been from Tibetan like people. Perhaps people forget that historical nomadic (Northern) Sino-Tibetan and Tibeto-Burmese of China ( Like Tibetans, Qiang, Tanguts, Di people) were nomadic, living pastoral life and historically had contact with Turks and Mongols too. Tibetan empire ruled parts of China, Central Asia, South Asia and Qiang people conducted many raids against Chinese, Turkic, Iranian. The Former Qin, Northern Qin ruled parts of Central China, North China to Inner Mongolia. The Di people was one of the Five Hu barbarians. Later Liang in China, another dynasties by Di people. The Western Xia, by Tanguts also ruled parts of eastern Xinjiang, North China, Inner Mongolia, and bits of Outer Mongolia. The Nanzhou in Southwest China and also invaded Southeast Asia and created vassals. So DO NOT EVER TREAT Yellow river as just Chinese DNA. Also Khitans were also 35-46% Yellow river, Inner Mongolians were already partly Yellow river DNA at 50% ( Southern Mongolia's people) was at time under Tanguts, Tibetan kingdoms before the time of Genghis Khan. SO COMPLETELY WRONG TO CLAIM. Inner Mongolians are mixed with Chinese. They always had high yellow of yellow river historically.

BMC in red = is Bactracia or Bactria-Margiana Archaeological. Most common in people of Tajiks also in Iran, Pasthun Afghans. Genetically between West Asian-European but mostly West Asian with some European admixture

Andronovo in blue= Androvono is DNA most common in historical Indo-Europeans of Kazakhstan and Northern Central Asian. Their DNA is mostly between European-West Asian but more European than West Asian.

Historical descriptions also matches with how they look like (DNA backs it up)

The Turkic tribes during the time of Genghis Khan was basically almost the same as Mongols and couldn't tell the difference. Gokturks Khagan even said Asimo Khagan looked more like a Sogdian instead of a Gokturk and did not allow him to become as shad.

Historical description from China also mentioned Uyghurs looked so similar to Chinese that the Chinese from Tang demanded the Uyghur (before invading Tarim Basin of Xinjiang) that they must wear their ethnic outfits, and never let any of them to pass as Chinese. The Gokturks were also treated as East Asian looking, enough that even a Chinese-Sogdian mix were considered more foreign looking to Han Chinese than a Gokturk. The Xiongnu for example also just didn't look too different to Han Chinese except for Jie tribe. It was the western regions (Central Asia before Turkic/Mongol invasion) and people of India that was described as looking like crazy different. However the Kipchaks and Yenesei Kyrgyz was indeed described different looking different by Chinese however Kipchaks DNA revealed they were 23-61% East Asian. The Cumans were 55.6% East Asian on average. Meaning they were mixed looking between East Asian. Meaning their phenotypes were mixed looking between East Asian and West Eurasian. Their Kipchaks and Cuman with blue eyes/blonde hair were actually black hair/brown hair with various degrees of blonde shades and blond highlights and their blue eyes were actually mostly gray, brown-blue hazel ( brown with blue shades). Historical Chinese, Indian, Persians, Arabs, dark haired europeans considered ginger as orange. You can be 90% black hair with 10% of reddish highlight especially on the front side and still be considered red haired. A brown hair that turns yellow under the sun is also called yellow haired historically.

( FOR SOURCES )

In 779, the Tang dynasty issued an edict that forced Uyghurs in the capital to wear their ethnic dress, stopped them from marrying Chinese females, and banned them from pretending to be Chinese.[36]

The Old Book of Tang described Ashina Simo's appearance as resembling Sogdians more than Göktürks. Simo's Sogdian-like appearance aroused suspicion towards him from Khagans Shibi and Chuluo and prevented Simo from becoming Shad.^([7])^([8])

"Memoirs of Tang dynasty from 727 AD"  described ethnic childrens of Chinese and Turks were indistinguishable from general Chinese population but childrens of Chinese men and Sogdian slave women had more foreign facial appearance.

According to author Wang Yu in his books of foreign ethnic groups.

Google translation from Chinese:

" They speak our language but are the omen of such mixed unions, offspring of Chinese men and Sogdian women cannot assimilate with Chinese, having unusual appearance of long aquiline noses, deep eye sockets with blue eyes. Having the appearance of neither Chinese and Sogdians. Some have light hair and light eyes, Generally, children of Chinese and foreign origin; Korean, Jurchens, Yue and Turkish people were indistinguishable from Chinese. "

Sima Qian 's (c. 145 – c. 86 BC) Chinese historian, early Han dynasty historian described Xiongnu physiognomy was "not too different from that of... Han (漢) Chinese population",[253]

Sima Qian embarked on a journey throughout the extend of Han dynasty, visiting various regions and it's borders to verify historical account. His accounts describes various nomadic tribes of Mongolia were not different to the Han in their physical appearances with the exception of the Jie tribe within Xiongnu.

"Those from the western regions and Shenduguo (India) were recorded as being "drastically different" in their physiognomy.")

Turkmens in Anatolia in 11-12th century (before Ottoman)

" Byzantine historians of the 11th-12th centuries provided description of Turkmens as very different from the Greeks."

Ottomans with high East Asian admixtures

They have found Ottoman Turks with high as 44% East Asian, 26% East Asian the rest being West Eurasian Iranic from Central Asian and local Anatolian. Their admixture is modeled as between Medieval Turkic and local Anatolian.

Closest related populations

In terms of racial admixtures (East Asians-West Eurasian), these Ottoman Turks with high East Asian admixture can be modelled as closest to modern day Uzbeks from Khozerm (37% East Asian average, range 33-59% East Asian) and Turkmen from Uzbekistan (27% East Asian, range of 23-57%). In the past, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan were mainly Iranic people the ruling Oghuz Turks tribes/clans were a ruling large minority. The Oghuz Turks that invaded 10th-11th century Anatolia from Central Asia were much more East Asian than the average inhabitant from Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan in the past, than came Mongol invaders came in 13th century and intermixed, complicating their admixture even more.

Ottoman Turks from 1500 AD (from 16th century)

Their East Asian admixture was 14.2% 16.8%, 18.4%, 19.6%. 22% .

Their admixture modelled between mostly Anatolian (mainly), significant Medieval Turkic with some low various degrees of admixture mostly from Balkans and from other European, Caucasus, Africans. This is most likely from the hundred thousands of Europeans and Caucasus slaves mainly females in Harem and some men brought in including hundred thousands of East African and Nubian mainly female slaves in harem and domestic, Also evidence of Greeks, Kurdish, Armenians and their DNA assimilated in modern Turkish population. The Crimean Tatars in the past 32% East Asian and Nogais Horde 55% East Asian, they raided millions of European slaves, many imported to Turkey.

Turkmen elite and Ottoman elite VERY MIXED (compared with average)

This is like the Mughals. The 1st and 2nd generation were pure Central Asian, 3rd and later generations were mostly non- Turkic and non-Central Asian (with most maternal being Persian, Indian muslim, Hindu women). Historian also said Turkic elite are prone to intermarry much more, due to their power and authority in choosing as many women they want

Look at the list of mothers of Ottoman and their ancestry: 90%+ of Ottoman emperors are basically little to no Turkic/Central Asian ancestry due to them repeating marrying foreign women from conquered territories.

https://i.ibb.co/HD0hXsNX/gy41dkbxz2qe1.jpg

Ottoman historian Mustafa Âlî commented in Künhüʾl-aḫbār that Anatolian Turks and Ottoman elites are ethnically mixed: "Most of the inhabitants of Rûm are of confused ethnic origin. "

Ottoman

Murad II, with a mother that was Oghuz Turkic, his facial features were described as looking like East Asians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mothers_of_the_Ottoman_sultans

" Bertrandon de la Broquière, a French traveller to the Ottoman Empire, met with sultan Murad II in Adrianople, and described him in the following terms" "In the first place, as I have seen him frequently, I shall say that he is a little eyes, short, thick man, with the physiognomy of a Tartar. He has a broad and brown face, high cheek bones, a round beard, a great and crooked nose,

Peter Jackson The Mongols and the West, 1211-1410

Of course, both Turkoman origin empires were powerful, and had strong armies - Jangavar | Janissary. Main differences: new - old empires, military modernisation.

It never happened and this is not surprising. First of all, Maku - Mush valley is very far, underdeveloped place of countries now even. Because, located in mountain plane, arid climate. This place was not interesting, and difficult to pass.

In the following centuries, Anatolia was so far Isfahan, also Iran was so far from Istanbul. Displacement of forces, transportation of supplies were not easy.

Ok, you can pass and two empires passes several times (also, other Medieval empires). Inner Iran and Inner Turkey are not simple places for Medieval armies. Also, resistance of people. Occupation is hard, but management of people (disaggrement of policy, religious matters, etc.) is hardest.

For example, Ilkhanate Empire attacks and destroyed Anatolian Beyliks (from Tabriz to Konya), it's capitals, make them vassals. But it wasn't effective and rooted like Seljuq, or Qaraqoyunlu. Even, some Beyliks allied with Mamluks. Also, Ottoman Empire attacks Safavid capital Tabriz city but Safavid Empire came back after 8 days, returned Tabriz and other cities.

Geographies of Iran, Southern Caucasus and Anatolia are not "easy to control". Not impossible but very difficult. On next periods, mental differences (religion, political, etc.) among two empires' peoples accelerated. If Safavid destroyed Ottoman or Ottoman destroyed Safavid, probably would be withdrawal of forces during next years.

Today, I am glad that not happened because all wars are not good for Azerbaijan Turks - Turkey Turks when we watch in this time.

What did he look like behind that imposing demeanor?

Ancestral composition of modern Altaic‐speaking populations based on supervised admixture, with modeled proportions of Ancient Northeast Asian ancestry (Mongolia_N_North and Ashina), as well as Chinese Central Plain millet farmers (YR_LN) and West Eurasian‐related ancestry (Russia_Sintashta_MLBA).

Herkese selam! Bazılarının Azerbaycan Türkçesini anlamaması gerçekten üzücü ve mecbur kardeş Anadolu Türkçesinde yazacağım, sonuçta ikisi de kendi dilim :)

Arkadaşlar, ben salağa anlatır şekilde anlatacağım çünki bilmem dilimden ve ya kasten, anlamama ayağına yatıyor bazıları.

Mantıksal tarafı: Öncelikle, rahmetli bir imparatordu, devlet yöneticisi. Senin de elinde o kadar güç ve idari işer olsa, ne günlerce odada kapanıp depresyon geçirmeği düşünmezsin, düşünsen bile devlet işleri başlıbaşına kalır, ne de o kadar zenginlik, şatafat içinde depresyonda tıkanıp kalmazsın.

Hakiki olaylar: Elbet bir savaşta mağlub olmaktan kimse hazz almaz, sevinmez. Fakat Şahın son savaşı Çaldıran değildi. Ondan sonra Gürcistana fetih düzenledi (bazı Osmanlı vassalı küçük hanedan aileler Safevi vassalı oldu) ve yine Özbeklere, hatta Tiflis, Buhara gibi şehirlerde garnizonlar formalaştırıldı.

Yani Şahın sonunu getirecek bir şey değildi Çaldıran. Ki, Turan taktiğine benzer bir şekilde geri çekilip kaybettiği yerlerin büyük kısmını yeniden ele aldı.

Malkoçoğlunun darbesiyle ağır yaralıydı ve müdahalesiz savaşta kalsa bile kan kaybından orada vefat ederdi. Yok, illa kaçmıştır demek aşağılamaktır.

Ve rahmetli Sultan Selim de bir Şahbanunu esir alarak, soylu ailesinden bir hanıma kötü muamele edecek kadar zayıf, onursuz birisi değildi. Ailesinin esir alınmasıyla tam kanıtlanmamış olay, geçenlerde bunun hakkında, aile ferdelerinin mezarlarıyla ilgili paylaşmam oldu. Lawrencenin ünlü Iran tarihi kitablarının 6cı hissesinde bir tek cümlede bundan bahs edilir, hatta 2 hanımdan, fakat isimleri, sonra onlara ne olduğu ve bu cümlenin kaynağı gösterilmemiştir.

Dindar, eğitimli biri olan Şah İsmayil Hazretlerinin içki düşkünlüğü sadece dilden dile dolaşan ve İslam tarihini hor görüb tam kanıtlanmamış bilgileri kitaplarına aktaran tarafsız akademisyenlerden başkasının işi değil. Şahın elçileri de davet ettiği bazı meclislerde genelde içki olması belli fakat şahsen içki düşkünü olması onun imajına zıt birşey ve onunla birebir görüşmüş Müslüman, Asyalı ve ya Avrupalı seyyahlar (en ünlüleri Pietro de Valle, Anthony Jenkinson), diplomatlar onun alkolik görünümünden asla yazmamışlar. Fakat, bugünkü gibi o dönemde de sahte havadisler, düşmanı aşağılayıcı fikirler hep vardı ve onu bazıları böyle terennüm eder. Bir çok liderlerle ilgili buna benzer konularda spekülasyonlar var. Yancı Bitlisi her seferinde Safevileri "rogue state" anlatmış, karşı tarafın imanına hep şübheli davranmış, çünki Osmanlıyla birlikti ve karşı tarafa düşünceler belliydi. Aksine, Safevi yancısı biri Osmanlılarla ilgili çok abartılı ve her defasında kınayıcı yazmışsa, demek ki, kalem elinde hisslerini de dökmüş, birinin sözü kanun değildir amma üzerine düşünülmesi gereken meseleler çünki tarihe düşmüş notlar.

Evet, Hatai şiirinde meh, kadeh yazmışsa, bu onun mutlak alkolik birisi olduğu anlamı taşırmı? Şair işte, mecazla ve ya altdan fikrini okucuya iletiyor, bu onun mutlak şarap bağımlısı anlamına mı gelir?

Ve en son, ölümü. Hani depresyondaydı ya - keşke her kes öyle depresyonda olsa. Şeki şehrine gelmesi, onun karşılanması ve valiyle birlikte ava çıkması her kese belli. Av sırasında kendini kötü hiss etmesi ve payitahta gelene kadar bir kaç kez attan indirilip kendisi için çadırların nerelerde, hangi güzergahlarda salınması belli. Çok manidar ki, Şah İsmayil ve Sultan Selim aralarında çok yaş farkı olsa da, benzer yaşlarda vefat etmişler.

Arkadaşlar, Şah da bizim, Sultan da bizim, onlar zamanında yalnış yapmış, EVET ben o devre gidersem kesin sonrakı yüzyılları anlatarak durdururdum çünki boşuna olmuş. Biz bugün böyle hassas mevzuları kaldırarak düşmanca yanaşmamalıyız kendimize. Sona kadar dikkatle okuduysan, sana TEŞEKKÜR :)

Kaynaklar:

* Rudi Matthee, Safavid Decline and the Fall of Isfahan, 2012, s. 23–25

* Willem Floor, Safavid Government Institutions, 2001, s. 130–131

* İskender bey Münşi, Tarih-i Alam-ara-ye Abbas, XVII yüzyıl

* Roger Savory, Iran under the Safavids, 1980, s. 40–41

* Willem Floor, Safavid Government Institutions, 2001, s. 58–59