Exactly what the title says. I'm going nuts with the who is who, so:

First Descender: Heavenly Principles

Second Descender: Seutervoinen, Voyager, Second Who Came (?)

Third Descender: Saarelainen, Ajax (?)

Fourth Descender: Traveler, Aether/Lumine

Do I have that right? Help

So a while ago I made a post overanalyzing Linnea's SQ and the species of fae in Snezhnaya,, so I'll just sort of... rant about my theories (and hopes) for Snezhnaya, because it will be a lore bomb.

To begin with, it's pretty much confirmed that Vodyanista will be our playable siren: Linnea has a voiceline that is subtle as a brick about it, and on top of it, she's the prima soprano of a troupe I will not try to spell correctly. I also did my research, and turns out, a vodyanoy is a sort of water spirit in slavic culture. And the suffix "-ista" seems to be a feminine suffix (if you know russian, correct me), so there you go: Vodyanista.
With Linnea and Celaeno there, will probably give us more lore on Hyperborea and, you guessed it, more nailed civilizations. It might even be a subregion.

And then there's the Tsaritsa, Anastasya Feodorovna Snezhnaya. She is named after Anastasya Romanov and Alexandra Feodorovna, the last princess and Tsaritsa of the Russian empire respectively, so... there's that. I wonder what that could be foreshadowing. Fun fact, "Anastasya" means "resurrection", and "Feodorovna" means "daughter of Feodor", which was the name of another Tsar. In other words, our Anastasya comes from an important family, maybe a very, very strange kind of fae.
For now, all that we know of her backstory is that she is the daughter of the Bely Tsar (I haven't found anything interesting on that name besides that it means "white"), who fell in love with Saarelainen, presumably Ajax, who was also the Third Descender. He was then asked by the Bely Tsar to open the "gates of Pohjola", maybe Celestia or something like that, but it was a trap, and he went willingly, knowing that otherwise, his beloved Anastasya would suffer the punishment. Saarelainen was carved into the Seven Gnoses, and Anastasya became the Tsaritsa of Snezhnaya we know today.
From there on, I have a few theories. We have the rebel route, and the sentimental route, as I like to call them.

For the rebel route, my theory is that the archons are giving up their gnoses because the Tsaritsa needs it for her plan, and they support it. But why can't they just... rebel themselves? Well, notice how the oldest archons, the ones who were there during the Cataclysm, are more scared of rebellion? Nahida, Focalors and Mavuika are way bolder, but still hold back: Nahida threatened to wake up the Heavenly Principles, Focalors... well, we all know about her middle finger to Celestia, and Mavuika pretty much did a warmup for Columbina's return with a moon included. They have their nations to protect, they are scared.
But the Tsaritsa? She has no love left for her people, nor do they have any left for her. The Tsaritsa has always seemed kind of... self sacrificing to me, like she couldn't care less about the Shades having their eyes locked on her and her nation.
I might be going crazy, but I think that Snezhnaya is gonna get nailed. Or in other words, that she's gonna take the fall for the rebellion against the heavens, and just like Focalors did, choose to be the last Cryo Archon, the last Tsar of Snezhnaya (name foreshadowing). I think that the other archons know that, and they are helping her because she will sacrifice herself, and since that will spare them from having to get their own nations nailed, the least they can do is help her. It would also explain why Mavuika and the Pyro Archons, who are mortal and isolated to Natlan, have no idea of her plan.

The sentimental route is way less dark. The theory here is that the archons are giving up their gnoses out of respect: like, I wouldn't keep a piece of my coworker's dead lover's body, no matter the authority or power or whatever it gave me
Of course, that raises the question of whether the Tsaritsa wants to revive Saarelainen or just use the gnoses to overthrow Celestia. Personally, I think both.

But there's another detail: it was the Bely Tsar who set Ajax up. He might have very well been the only archon who was willingly on the Heavenly Principles' side. Why? No idea, but maybe the Tsaritsa also wants to defeat Celestia as a sort of redemption for what her father did.

This is the most accurate take on the timeline of events (so far). I haven't seen anyone in the community post this specific timeline yet, so I decided to share the one I've put together.

Okay, starting at the beginning: the Abyss Sibling actually left the ship right after the twins first arrived in Teyvat. After that, the ship just kept moving without them, with only the Traveler on board.

Then, Asmoday caught the Abyss Sibling and locked them up in the Temple of Space. Later on, the Abyss Sibling managed to escape, but they had to sacrifice their memories to do it. After leaving the temple with no memories, they were suddenly summoned to Khaenri'ah and started living with its people. When they finally regained their memories and went looking for the Traveler, they couldn't find the ship anywhere.

"We'd been separated ever since I awakened in Teyvat. I searched the whole planet, and found no trace of you anywhere..."

(This dialogue is from the story 'Space and Time for You').

But why couldn't they find them? It's because the Traveler was still traveling through space alone, fast asleep inside a stasis capsule, completely unaware that their twin had left the ship a long time ago.

(This is exactly why the Abyss Sibling told the Traveler they couldn't find the ship when they searched for it. It's also the reason the Abyss Sibling wasn't shown coming out of the ship, but was instead seen arriving at it from the outside, because when the ship arrived in Teyvat for the second time, it was carrying only the Traveler.)

500 years ago, the Traveler's ship returned and landed in Nod-Krai, and the events of "Space and Time for You" happened: Direidyth took the ship's key from the Abyss Sibling and gave it to their past self. This was the definitive proof the past Abyss Sibling needed to know the Traveler was actually here in Teyvat.

Once they realized this, the Abyss Sibling left Khaenri'ah and went to the ship to wake the Traveler up so they could escape Teyvat together. But right before they could leave, Asmoday stopped them, trapped them in cubes, and sent them back to Teyvat by order of the Heavenly Principles.

That's when the Abyss Sibling woke up (before the Traveler), and their journey with Dainsleif began. They traveled all across Teyvat until their journey ended at the Sea of Flowers at the End. There, the Abyss Sibling decided to rebuild Khaenri'ah and go to war against the Heavenly Principles. Dainsleif didn't agree with their plan at all, which is why they split up and went their separate ways. A long time later, the Traveler finally woke up, fished out Paimon, and started the journey we are playing right now.

And yaeh, the Heavenly Principles are not the ship's Al, because they already existed before the ship's first arrival.

I've been itching to read fanfiction that shows a good understanding of a character's canon lore (backstory, personality, present day behavior/actions), or even fics that are 'Canon Divergent', i.e. take existing canon lore and making tweaks to illustrate an original new (yet still very plausible and canon-adjacent) story. Does anyone have any recommendations of fanfics that fit this trope?

I have a few recommendations of my own:

change in me/change in you, by relationshipcrimes on ao3. I would describe it as a Xiao and Zhongli centric character study and canon divergence story, starting from the very beginning when Zhongli liberated Xiao from his old master. Very well written, though incomplete.

whatever the distance the birdhouses stood for, by earlgreyhui on ao3. Absolutely beautifully written poetic-style prose. The story is about Xiao's grief and other complicated emotions over the deaths of his yaksha friends. The author portrays and expands upon the other yaksha's stories very well.

In all my almost six years playing this game, why is this the first time we've had real geopolitical implications? Like in the real game, not in notes or books about the past of Teyvat. I'm talking about the world-building in gameplay. I think the closest we got to this was that Natlan event with that racist Fontainian, but now, in this random event that most people would count as a middle-region filler, we have real geopolitical implications: the distrust in the "poor" region's people, the ignorance of the dominant region's folk, the cultural implications, the interactions, and the call out to the justice system of the 'nation of justice' being the worst justice system of all nations. Like, we had parts of it in the past, but it always felt bland. "The desert folk are looked down upon," yet we barely see it in gameplay (probably because most Eremites we met are enemies) like even the sewers in Fontaine are barley even mentioned, what you mean the one of the richness nations has most of its population living in a sewer and there's barley any real world implications to it. For the first time, Teyvat feels alive, not a world that had fallen, whose only real interactions were all in the past. It's alive now, this is beautiful. I'm begging you, Mihoyo, like the beggiest beggar in all of begdom, please keep this up to Snezhnaya. We NEED this. This is the bare minimum level of political complexity we NEED in a nation like Snezhnaya.

While the name "Hat Guy" may just seem like a comic relief name and a nifty little narrative technique to make things easier for the voiced quests, it has a deeper root in culture that is often dismissed. I've seen this especially in the Luna arch, where people are irritated at him only being referred to as "hat guy". There is also some hate towards Nahida for giving him a silly name like that. But it seems very intentional to me.

Sumeru is an amalgamation of Medieval India ( Primarily Hindustan era) and Persia and Ancient Egypt. In Old India, immigrants and settlers who were not of much influence would abandon their original names in favour of more local names. This meant new names entirely or an Indianized/Hindustani version of their actual surnames.

This is particularly true for the merchants and refugees that came from Persia. Those who were "nameless" were referred to by their appearance or professions.

This brings us to Hat Guy.

Hat in Hindustani is "Topi".

Guy in Hindustani has many variations, but for this particular instance, it would be "Wala", meaning "man with"

So "man with the hat" would be "Topiwala" in Hindustani ( *ٹوپی والا / टोपी वाला), which IS a genuine surname in India, usually belonging to groups with Persian ancestry.

Hat guy, as a wanderer without a name or identity, was accepted by Sumeru and given a name unique to the culture it represents.

Why did hoyo bother letting us name him if we were never going to use his name anyways?

That's a question I see a lot. I'm sure there are technical reasons for this, like voice recording, but I'd like to point another cultural reference out. In Indian and Persian ( or rather, in all patriarchal countries') academics scholars, teachers, staff and students are mostly called by their surnames. This was true up until my parents generation but is less common now. It was considered very rude for someone to call others by their first name with only the closest of friends or childhood friends using it.

While most of the Sumeru cast is fairly laid back, wanderer does NOT come across as a person who'd let just anyone use his real name. It makes sense then, that the Nod Krai cast only gets introduced to him by the name "Hat Guy".

Though the name might seem out of place to us, I'd like to think that one day, "Hat Guy" too will be a legacy of Sumeru. A name that conveys the pride and prestige of its founder. "House of Hat Guy"

*Pardon my Urdu, I am very much a new learner

I want to ask for your opinion on something I didn't completely understand.

In the temple of space quest - we are told that Asmoday lacks empathy, and named her watchers the two things she could deal with the least: melancholy and emptiness.

I watched some lore theorists who took it as that Asmoday suffers from melancholy. And it could be true, but before seeing this interpretation, the way I took it while playing the quest was that since she's incapable of empathy and therefore of feelings in general, and therefore she wouldn't suffer from melancholy because she's incapable of human feelings as a whole.

How did you interpret this part?

So Melanta said that all Teyvatians are descended from the First Ancestor. Thus those who are descended from the First Ancestor are Children of Humanity-- while the Traveler, who is not a descendant of this ancestor -- is not. He goes on to mention the myth of the Primordial Human: a body created by the God of Light, and stolen away by the King of Darkness. And so the Primordial Human became capable of both great good and evil.

I interpret this to be Teyvat's version of the Fall of Humanity. Not a literal retelling of history, but with some truth still in the seams. The God of Light (Phanes = "To bring light") created the Primordial Human (the first man) in his image. But when the King of Darkness (Forbidden Knowledge? Some other temptation?) spirited the first man away, the Primordial Human was infested by the power of darkness. Thus the Primordial Human and all its descendants came to possess the power of Light and Dark. 

But Melanta says that Asmoday might have taken our sibling BECAUSE of something to do with the Primordial Human myth. So even though the myth might not be a perfect retelling, there is something about it (in connection to the Twins) that made her take our sibling. So I started looking into connections between the Twins and the Primordial Human. And I think I found one.

We are not a Child of Humanity, but they are very similar to Teyvatians. In Albedo's first Story Quest, he tests the Traveler's body and finds that we are very much like a regular human from Teyvat. How can we be so similar to Teyvatians, when we are neither descendants of the Primordial Human, nor from Teyvat? Skirk shows that humanoids can evolve on different planets, but even she is distinct because of her Abyssal Affinity and aquatic fins. Since Albedo is a product of the Primordial Human Project, and a skilled alchemist, I think he would be able to identify any outstanding biological differences between Teyvatians and the Traveler, if there were any. But by his own testimony, there aren't. So we're aliens, and yet we're "the same" as the locals? How?

The similarities don't stop at the Children of Humanity. Teyvatians did not evolve naturally, they were created by the Primordial One in THEIR own image. But if the Twins mirror Teyvatians, and the Teyvatians mirror the Primordial One, does this not hint that the Twins are "the same" as the Primordial One, in some manner of speaking? With what we know about the Primordial One's nature, don't THEY seem familiar?

Phanes is a winged androgynous being, who wears a crown and was born from an egg. A Descender, with the will to rival the world, and the means to terraform a planet. If the Primordial Human is any indication-- this entity is humanoid. Meanwhile, the Twins are winged, androgynous-looking humanoids, who are crowned heirs, extremely willful, and in possession of a Pioneer Ship that can terraform a planet. But Phanes was born from an egg, while the Twins were born from a mother (Aether is the older twin, meaning he came out of their mother first). So just like with the Teyvatians, the Twins and the Primordial One are similar-- yet alien to each other in origin. How can that be?

My idea is that they aren't alien to each other.

We know that the Twins were once the heirs of their lost civilization (lets call them the "Pioneers"). But with their world's destruction, they fled on an advanced Pioneer Ship which could terraform a suitable planet into a new home. But with such advanced technology, and faced with the destruction of their world, I don't think it's far-fetched to say the Pioneers might have made more than one of these ships for redundancy.

There are hints of another such ship existing. Before Sun and Moon & Moonlit Offering's Parting Light describe an "Ark" which arrived on Teyvat with the Primordial One. Looking back at the Pioneer Ship's tech (like a gene vault), it would be entirely apt to describe such a vessel as an "Ark". And I think that's exactly what this Ark is: a Pioneer Ship. One that arrived in Teyvat and stayed (it is said to have been "moored" on Teyvat), unlike the Twins' ship, which fled immediately.

It was generally thought that the Ark (if it was literally existent) was a vessel that Phanes brought to start fresh on a new world. But if the Ark is a pioneer ship, I think the Primordial One might instead have been its passenger-- the same way the Twins' were flown around the universe by their ship's AI. So perhaps, Phanes is a member of the Pioneer Civilization, who escaped on a ship, just like the Twins? It seems so. But factoring in THEIR supposed origin from an "egg", I think there's more to it. This is where I go into deeper speculation.

In Gnosticism, the Demiurge is a false god, ruling a false world, who is ignorant of the true god, created by the Aeon Sophia. This false god is a distorted imitation of the true god, believing itself to be the only god there is. It has been widely accepted in Genshin Lore that Phanes is our Demiurge. But if THEY are the Demiurge, then who is Genshin's Sophia, and who is Genshin's original god?

The Ark would have arrived in the skies of Teyvat over 6000 years ago, at the time of the dragon age. Teyvat was perfect for terraforming, but the presence of the seven sovereigns made it impossible to proceed. The Ark's AI (our "Sophia") knew that taking Teyvat would require a conquest it was not equipped for. So in response, I think the AI created a solution-- or rather, incubated one. With its genetic vault (the "egg"), the Ark created a being in the image of the Crowned Heirs. This imitation had everything that the Twins had. Their wings, their appearance, and even their powers-- all necessary to defeat the dragons. But because this being was born in isolation, it believed itself to be the one and only of its kind, the true heir to the throne of the Pioneers. And so it declared itself as the Great Ruler of the Firmament: The Primordial One. With that, it harnessed the powers of The Ark (Celestia maybe??) to change the face of Teyvat.

Things proceeded swimmingly, until the War of Funerary Flame greatly damaged the Ark's systems. So the Primordial One, having lost a critical vessel of power, needed to find a replacement. The Gnoses and the Dragon Authorities fulfilled this role. At some point after the War of Funerary Flame, the Twins' spaceship passed by, and our sibling disembarked.

I'm hesitant to include our Sibling's timeline, since it hasn't been objectively laid out yet. But from what's implied, our Sibling landed in Teyvat alone. when she was captured by Asmoday, then imprisoned in the Temple of Space.
Around 500 years ago, the Khaenri'ahns fished our Sibling out of the Temple, leading to him/her losing all memories. Though they eventually regain their memories, they fail to locate us, because the Traveler is still on the ship.

At the time of the cataclysm, the spaceship landed back on Teyvat, leading to the Sibling attempting to escape with the Traveler. This was followed by our failed escape attempt, leading to us getting captured by Asmoday. But it seems that, after this event, Asmoday vanished-- having sided with the Sibling. I think Asmoday might have noticed how similar we are to Phanes, leading to the eventual discovery that the Twins are the rightful heirs of Teyvat. I think another Shade helped uncover this fact-- specifically Naberius, since she is highly knowledgeable about humanoid biology, as the creator of all Teyvatians.

But evidently, Asmoday left and Naberius got her heart ripped out. I think the Primordial One might have found out about Asmoday and Naberius' little discovery. So THEY ripped her heart out and sealed it in a dungeon, so that no one could awaken the Shade of Life and discover the truth. Simultaneously, he seized the Twins' spaceship to try and force its submission-- leading to the vessel's data being corrupted. But since the ship refused to submit, he instead chucked it to the Frost Moon (and maybe used Irminsul to modify records of its existence).

The Primordial One then entered cryosleep on the Ark, having been severely weakened again by the cataclysm. But unbeknownst to THEM in THEIR slumber, Asmoday has freed the Twins. As for the Ship's AI, the Traveler did not really seem to look for it in the ship when they went to the moon with Columbina. Maybe because they don't know it exists. Or maybe because Traveler already knows where it is. And it, or rather she, has been following us all throughout our journey.

....maybe.

edit: adjusted the latter parts for some more clarity

Hu Tao's "About: Name" voice line in Chinese:

>胡桃的胡是胡吃海喝的胡，胡桃的桃却不是淘气的淘！嘿嘿…不、不好笑吗？

The joke runs on two stacked homophones. 胡 (Hú, her surname) sounds identical to the 胡 in 胡吃海喝 (gluttonous gobbling). Then 桃 (Táo, peach, the second character of her name) almost sounds like 淘 (Táo) in 淘气 (mischievous). She sets up the second pun and then denies it, which is the actual punchline. A child-prankster's name riddle, built into the Chinese characters of her own name.

This joke is impossible to carry into another language. The phonetics don't transfer, and the whole concept of name-character punning works differently outside Chinese. So every team had to throw away the literal mechanic and rebuild from zero. Each team picked a different facet of Hu Tao to anchor on.

Japanese (official):

>胡桃の「ふ」はおふざけの「ふ」、胡桃の「た」はぐーたらの「た」！…え、面白くない？

The character-level pun is gone (the kanji 胡 has no fixed kana reading). They switch to a kana-level acrostic. Hu Tao's name reads as フータオ (Fū Tao) in Japanese, so they pull the leading "ふ" and "た" and match them to おふざけ (foolery, playfulness) and ぐーたら (lazy, idle). Both words land squarely on the playful-kid persona. It's the same archetype as the Chinese version; gluttony just got swapped for laziness.

English (official):

>Hu as in "Who put me in this coffin?" and Tao as in "I can't geT OUt!" Hehe... No, not funny?

This is a different solution entirely. The character-level mechanic is gone, the playful-kid-glutton frame is gone. They build a letter-level acrostic instead, hiding "Hu" inside "Who" and "Tao" inside "geT OUt." Then they fill the carrier sentences with funeral-parlor humor. Coffin. Can't escape. The English Hu Tao isn't introducing herself as a hungry mischievous kid. She's introducing herself as the 77th-generation funeral director who can't help joking about death because it's her actual job.

Same character. Different facet pulled forward.

What's interesting is that this isn't a one-off divergence. The same EN/JP split shows up across her kit. Look at her Elemental Burst voicelines:

Burst 1

• CN: 吃饱喝饱，一路走好！
• JP: いってらっしゃい！
• EN: Time to go!

The Chinese 一路走好 is the standard funeral parting line, the thing you say at a wake. Hu Tao layers it over a host's "eat well, drink well" wish and produces something that's literally telling someone to enjoy themselves on the way to the afterlife. The Japanese version flattens this to いってらっしゃい, the everyday "see you off" phrase your mother says when you leave the house. No funeral coding at all. The English version sits in the middle, ambiguous enough to read either way.

Burst 2

• CN: 再会啦！
• JP: さよなら！
• EN: Cross over!

Now it inverts. The Chinese 再会 is mild ("see you again"). The Japanese さよなら is a bit heavier (it has a more permanent feel than the casual じゃね). The English "Cross over!" goes for the explicit afterlife reading. EN takes the funeral side even when CN didn't push it.

Burst 3

• CN: 蝶火燎原！
• JP: 燎原の蝶！
• EN: Pyre, pyre, pants on fire!

CN and JP are roughly literal of each other ("butterfly fire spreading the plain"). EN takes a wild leap into a double pun: "pyre" (the funeral pyre) plus "pants on fire" (the kids' lying rhyme). That single line packages Hu Tao's whole deal in five words: a child playing with the symbols of death.

The pattern across her bursts:

• CN: comfortable using Chinese funeral idioms when they fit (一路走好), neutral when they don't (再会).
• JP: tends to soften, flattening funeral-coded Chinese into everyday phrasing when given a choice.
• EN: tends to amplify, picking death-coded phrasing even when the Chinese was neutral.

Each language is settling into a default register sensibility for this character. JP defaults toward gentler, safer, more polite phrasing. EN defaults toward sharper, darker, more explicit. CN sits in the middle and uses whatever the language has ready to hand.

Which means when each team had to build her name-pun joke from scratch with no literal anchor at all, the result wasn't random. They each defaulted to their established tonal lean: JP picked the playful-kid side, EN picked the funeral-parlor-girl side. Both are real Hu Tao, and you can argue either way which is more central to the character. But the choice isn't translation. It's character-design judgment.

This is the third in a series. The Zhongli post a few weeks back showed JP softening a classical-Chinese poem citation into modern conversational Japanese. The Raiden post showed JP turning a divine command into polite ます form. The pattern in both was: JP localization had old-language tools available (文語体, classical Japanese) and chose not to use them.

Hu Tao is a counterpoint. Here, no team had a literal tool. Every team had to rebuild from scratch. And the same systematic JP gentleness AND systematic EN boldness show up anyway, just expressed in which trait of her each team chose to save.

You can read this two ways. One reading: JP localization has a bias against starkness that costs them when sharper language would serve the character (Zhongli's classical poetry, Raiden's divine command). Hu Tao is the case where the bias works for them, because dialing up coffin humor in Japanese cultural context probably would feel jarring rather than funny. So the same default settings are appropriate here even though they were costly there.

The other reading: localization isn't translation. Each language has built-in defaults for how dark, how grand, how silly a character is allowed to feel, and those defaults will assert themselves whether the source language is supplying anchors or not. Three teams looking at the same Chinese line saw three different characters and protected three different things. The product is three coherent, internally-consistent Hu Taos that share an outline but not a soul.

Either reading lands at the same conclusion: localization is character-design judgment with a register dial, and the dial has different default positions in different languages.

Which Hu Tao do you actually play with?

https://preview.redd.it/wff44rxx3txg1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=a56e88e06c0caa4562c5d4e1bc3a2153c42d95b1

I think with the recent updates, it's pretty safe to say that Venti is immune to Erosion, unlike other beings in Teyat.

https://preview.redd.it/08vv6f4bwrxg1.png?width=1161&format=png&auto=webp&s=99a8f05e3223d9123fff640aa8f13d06f3838655

The NPC in Dorman Port heavily implies this to be true, as well as Nicole's statement about Venti's memories being reliable, which affirms that he isn't affected by Erosion. He's also never shown to worry about being affected by erosion, unlike Zhongli.

Coincidentally, I was playing through the Aranara Quest right before 6.5 dropped, and boy, there are so many interesting details there about memory and corruption. As well as references to wind and time.

https://preview.redd.it/clmgztlcwrxg1.png?width=1138&format=png&auto=webp&s=38b6a2d6f61f71cc52ecff0653e9f73762bd5972

The first quote definitely asserts that the winds are unchanging and constant, and that they are everywhere. The second quote is what makes me believe that the wind could be an agent of erosion. This shows that the wind is carrying these memories away fyi leads to them being forgotten. But this quest is about the withering, so I decided to go check out Zhongli's story quest once more to see if I missed anything.

https://preview.redd.it/uf3t5kudwrxg1.png?width=1160&format=png&auto=webp&s=0dc50b53965efe97304d0865d72a2e852b955bd5

Kun Jun is Azdhaha, btw, that's him in that human. This was at the very end of the quest, where he and Zhongli were talking. Time is what causes erosion. We know that the wind carries the memories and presence of all creatures to Time. And at the end of the quest, the wind is present when erosion was taking its effects on Azdaha.

I think that might be a consequence of bringing memories to Time. The wind is the agent of Time's Erosion. Another thing that could support this is that in real life, erosion is caused by the wind and water.

Anyways, what do you think? Do you agree?

After doing the Temple of Space world quest, Melanta once said the following:

"All who descend from the first ancestor shaped by the lord of all, and those born of that lineage, are called children of humanity. Even the artificial people of the Primordial Sea, granted special pardon, are counted among them."

And I am a bit confused concerning the "granted special pardon" part.

Because there's an NPC, who appears in the Desert Pavillion segment of the quest, whose voiceline changes depending on whether we completed Sumeru's Archon Quests up until the 5th act, where Rukkhadevata gets erased from Irminsul. If you didn't complete it, this NPC will mention the name Rukkhadevata by saying she comes from the time where she was still the archon of Sumeru. However, if you did reach the end of Sumeru's main archon quests, she will instead say that she comes from the age where the Dendro Archon did not yet turn herself into a child, or something along those lines.

However, Melanta's line mentioning the Fontainians being pardoned does not change, to my knowledge, regardless of whether you completed Fontaine's archon quests or not - the 5th act being where Neuvillette actually forgive the Fontainians' sins after regaining his Hydro authority.

And that leaves me confused, because wasn't Fontaine's Archon Quests' entire point about defying fate in the corners of the world where the gods' gazes do not fall? That we couldn't change the prophecy, but that we could change its outcome? That the Traveler being a variable was exactly the reason why the Fontainians' were able to slightly alter their fate, along with Neuvillette who isn't even bound by fate at all either?

It sounds like, if Celestia's gods did indeed forgive the Fontainians long ago, Fontaine's Archon Quest ends up being rather pointless compared to all the other nations. It feels really bizarre and completely opposite to the story the quests were trying to tell. So I am confused... what do you think?

DISCLAIMER: FOR THE SAKE OF LENGTH I AM NOT DIRECTLY QOUTING ANYTHING. SOURCES ARE MARKED LIKE THIS^(WITH A LINK TO THE MATERIAL)

Request specific evidence if you desire, but I suggest being caught up with most lore to make sense of any of this from the get go. For the majority, having read Hymns of The North and the descriptions of all pieces of The Finale Of The Deep Series would be your best bet.

Sorry for spelling/grammar errors in advance as well.

Intro

As we are anxious to get into Sheznaya, the old question of why The Tsarista wants to collect the gnoses at all becomes even heavier.

With Skirk's old lore drop, most of us took note that each gnosis was sculpted by The Heavenly Principles out of The Third Descender^([Finale]) But that’s the main and only major takeaway I’ve seen collectively. I’ve seen little discussion of The Third Descender themselves. And while this theory is just a theory, not a fact like how the gnoses are made from them, I want to make a connection between it and The Tsarista’s possible reasoning for wanting the gnoses in the first place.

Let’s set up with another fact: The Tsarista wants to overthrow The Divine. Right? Right. At least that’s what Dainsleif says in The Travail Trailer. Every nation we come to, its main plot is always addressed to match his introductions to them in the trailer. Even if they didn’t, I think it’s pretty reasonable to conclude that’s what her goal is with multiple other considerations/factors that are too numerous to list.

The 3rd Descender Was Set Up

Here's a rough general timeline of Teyvat's history(relevant to this):

pretty bare bones timeline, IK

So the big thing here is that Seutervoinen warned Nibelung about bad tidings and this same Seutervoinen "comes" to Teyvat themselves after Nibelung is defeated. (Because Nibelung didn't want their offered help and went and got inflicted with The Abyss instead, oops) And then...the body they were in (Saarelaienen, The Third) also gets defeated.^([HOTFNV2]) ^([FOTDS]) ^([DGDP])

When I was looking at this basic order of events, I wondered- what if The Heavenly Principles knew of Seutervoinen's influence too? And Saarelaienen was specially targeted because of it*?* Think about it. In order to be a Descender, you have to be an alien or at least "descend" from space. Saarelaienen was not an alien by himself, he was a boy born and raised in Hyperborea.^([HOTFNV2]) Therefore, he wouldn't fit the "definition". But...if Phanes knew an alien's mind was within him, then he could.

Now here's the basic story of Saarelaienen:

what I man am i rite

That's right. This is the same dude who marries the first angel.^([HOTFNV2])

But there's the "man" who was demanding the gates to be open in the first place**,** Pakkaisukko. The supposed father of Koitar^([HOTFNV2]) , when we know full well she is a creation of The Heavenly Principles.^([DGLC]) I will come back to Pakkaisukko later, but you can note that he was probably a fae. The point right now is just to mark that this guy being her father doesn't add up. So lets focus on these Gates of Pohjola and why he wanted them open so bad...

In modern Teyvat, Pohjola is the island in Nod Krai, consisting of Voidsea Outlook, Wavechaser Plain, Ashveil Peak, as well as the unreleased part of the island. So, like, you know, the island where the giant abyss eyeball is, and the place where you go into the abyssal sea in a broken apocalypse bunker, the same island where Koitar's court is, and where the Serpent of all Evils was dealt with.^([bro just look at the game map, run around the island, do the world quests, lots of sources]) If opening the gates of Pohjola, therefore later having this island exist, meant allowing all this abyss juice to flow in to Teyvat, it would make sense why The Heavenly Principles would act to the point of destroying the nation Koitar and Saarelaienen led that stood there at the time, Hyperborea, with a celestial nail.^([WOK]) ^([DGMOV])But then why didn't the HP also close the gates of Pohjola?

My take: The abyss influence that came from opening the gates of Pohjola was an excuse for the Heavenly Principles to kill Saarelainen. Because he knew the being that tipped off Nibelung was within him- who was the real threat to him. So he had Pakkaisukko make him open the gates, knowing he would probably want to spare Koitar from doing so. Also, he got the added benefit of using his body to make the gnoses - and if that was also his plan all along- he must of known that the makeup of Saarelainen was perhaps effected by the cosmic fortune teller enough he could harness all of the elements as such. ^([Finale])

Or Was it The Other Way Around?

Let's rewind a bit.

• Saarelainen knew that he would be punished for opening the gates, getting married to Koitar, but he did it all anyway. ^([Finale]) ^([Neuv])
• Seutervoinen can foresee fates. Aka she can see the future. ^([DGDP])
• The two of them were in one mind.
• Seutervoinen told Koitar the truth of who she was. ^([DGES])
• Koitar told them the secrets of Teyvat. ^([DGES])
• The pair are why Hyperboreans got so advanced, etc. ^([WOK])

Also:

• Seutervoinen didn't die too, she reportedly can't be killed.^([DGDP])
• While everything happened, her true being was in space as always, and still probably is.^([DGDP])
• She is duty bound not to get involved in other world's fates, but she did for Teyvat twice. ^([DGDP])
• Skirk's master, Surgatoli, asked her to find this Miss Seutervoinen.^([DGBB])

So... sus?

But What if The Divine Suspects The Same?

Now we can talk about Pakkaisukko again:

• Pakkaisukko was likely a fae, and faes were created by the Hyperboreans who were taught how to do so by Koitar.^([faes]) ^([DGMOO])

So the Hymns of The North, where Pakkaisukko is recorded to be her father, to be the one who wanted the gates to be opened? The same history that called Koitar gullible?^([HOTFNV2]) You know what it seems like? A cover story, and all cover stories have at least one hole. A cover for the fact that her and her husband were trying to overthrow The HP to begin with. A "better" reason for why they were punished- making them seem innocent. When in all likely hood they really opened the Gates of Pohjola in hopes to attack the Heavenly Principles with the Abyss like Nibelung. And they failed - were punished for attacking - not only because they loved each other oh so much. Seutervoinen, despite not being "fully" there was also reported to get her memories wiped the same as Koitar. ^([DGES])

But about that, if The HP did set up The Third Descender's death, then he knew he would want to curse Koitar and the rest of the angles "for loving" and proceeded with his plot anyway. But the Tsarista is the archon of love. ^([Wan]) If she came to this conclusion or heard of this being this the reason for the angel's being cursed, she would maybe be rather...upset. Then, after her heartbreak and shock, Her Majesty might have also concluded that this Third Descender must be a ridiculous kind of threat to the HP for him to curse his angels "for loving" over them.

Conclusion

The Tsarista wants the gnoses because she believes The Third Descender left power from Seutervoinen within them -- and this is exactly what The Heavenly Principles wants her to think. Even if there is power within them from her - in all likelihood, he could use the traces to track down the true third descender himself and finally defeat them.

In the same vein, The Tsarista seeks to topple The Divine because she see's them as despicable, even cursing their own angels for loving - what she believes in. But she doesn't know the entire truth, the whole story, that the real reason the "forbidden couple" was punished was for opening The Gates of Pohjola, letting the Abyss run amok, and this fact has been hidden from her purposely. Again, all maybe so The HP can hope to neutralize the threat of Seutervoinen. The one descender he didn't completely get rid of - that is still out there beyond the stars, uncontrollable, who could potentially threaten the fates and order he has bestowed upon Teyvat again.

Basically, The Tsarista wants to use the gnoses to topple The Heavens, and The Heavens want her to try. Are waiting for it. It's possibly a trap for The Traveler as well- Phanes really hates descenders.

You might be thinking "then why would he use the remains to make gnoses and then spread them out and give them to the archons?"

In the War of Funerary Flame, the HP were severely injured, defeating Nibelung came at a "great cost."^([Neuv]) They've also been sleeping for the past 500 years.^([ASATFY]) This suggests they aren't or weren't in the best shape. And the gnoses may be elemental foci, meant for resonating archons to Celestia^([Venti]) made out of The Third, but they were sculpted by Phane's hand, so he could tack on multiple other uses of his own in the meantime of letting The Tsarista's false beliefs solidify. AKA he had to bide his time with the Third's remains and ensure they were hard to find and protected by his chosen "guardians". Probably in preparation for The Traveler's arrival. Cause if he figured out The Third's arrival then there's no reason The Fourth's should be a surprise to him.

(rephrasing this question since it was confusing)

Why didn't Egeria transform the Oceanides into fully human beings?

I always thought that, since she is the heart of the Primordial Sea and was created from Teyvat’s original material, she had complete control over the Primordial Sea. I thought she had lost that control after being punished and imprisoned, and since she created the Oceanids—a new race in Teyvat—with just her tears, she had the power to create and manipulate life freely. I was thinking earlier that she had done this because she wanted to maintain good relations with both the Oceanids and the Celestia (transforming them into humans just enough to satisfy their desires, while at the same time not making them fully human so that she could undo it and HP wouldn’t see it as a violation or a sin), but the correct answer is probably that she simply didn’t have the necessary resources to turn them into humans.

But then I wonder, why? I know she wanted to grant the Oceanids’ wishes, but to the point of risking HP’s wrath? The Oceanids’ “wishes” seem like a very weak motivation for someone who is the Daughter of the Shadow of Life. This seems very nonsensical to me, as if she had forgotten to develop that part.

Teyvat was home to dragons. Ruled by neubelang they were an extremely advanced civilisation. Then voyager came as a spirit and befriended neubelang. She warned him of the abyss and then went away. Neubelang wanted to protect teyvat so he created the moon goddesses and gave them his authority to oversee stuff. Then he also left teyvat to do something. Is there any confirmation on why he left?

Then PO(1st decender I am guessing) arrived alongside humans. He cut a deal with the moon goddesses to access teyvat. He created the shades. Then he defeated the 7 soverigns and terraformed teyvat by dividing white light into 7 elements. The dragons couldnt survive this and many died. He also crested the seelie to guide humanity. Is there any confirmation on if he is considered a decender and also what deal he had with the moon goddesses?

Voyager(2nd decender) then came back to catch up with neubelang and found the planet under new management. She inhabited a body of a guy and fell in love with the 1st angel called koitar. They then started to rebel against PO. Neubelang also returns at the same time corrupted by the abyss. He gets angry at the moon goddess and imprisons them. The ensuing fight b/w the dragons, angels and celestia is called the War of Funerary Flames. PO shatters the eternal and iridecent moon and kills the frost moon goddess but keeps her moon intact. Is there any confirmation if neubelung came back on his own or did voyager called him back? Also why is voyager 2nd decender? He/ She should be 1st right?

PO wins the war at a great personal cost. Enkanomiya sinks beneath the earth. Nails are dropped in dragonspine, chasm, thunderbird island, desert and a whole lot more places. Khanreiah as a nation also starts to be estabilised. One of the khanreaian clans is gets influence from the broken husk of iridecent moon and is called the crimson moon bloodline. Then the 3rd decender arrives. He gets killed and his body parts become the gnosis. The PO starts the archon war, the 7 wins and gets the gnosis. Here, do we have any confirmation on why the 3rd decender died or who he was?

The crimson moon dynasty is overthrown by the vinster king. The Traveller duo arrives. From what I understand, Lumine was summoned and not aether so aether is considered 4th decender. Lumine wakes up and goes to khanreah. He starts research on the abyss using the corrupted iridecent moon and lumine. He also starts to purge the crimson moon people. Then I suppose abyss manages to get too the king too cause he starts to go mad. He blinds dain's brother the visonary for not agreeing with him and Opens the abyss completely. The sinners get their powers and the aboveworld nation faces disaster. The archons, yakshas, Yokai and all fight and stuff go to shit. Lumine wakes up Aether and they try to run. Sustainer stops them. Pure blood khanreaians get cursed with immortality and the half bloods gets turned into hilichurls by celestia. Lumine agains wakes up first, travels the world with dain, has a fallout and becomes the abyss princess. In between celestia falls silent and the tsaritsa starts her plan to capture the gnosis. Traveller wakes up later and starts his journey.

My question here is when does the time fuckery thing we see in last natlan quest fit in this? I gave aether as the traveller and lumine as the abyss princess as I play as those. No offence to those who chose the other combination.

Contains spoilers + just my theories!!

After playing through the temple of space, I think everyone was quick to notice how the entire space seems familiar to Paimon. Including the part where she knew Dexter—called him "Dex"—before Istoria tells us the name.

I think Paimon is a baby shade.

Remember how at the end of the quest, Istoria tells Dexter to not forget what they've done for him? I always got the feeling that it means that Dexter can grow/ascend to become someone like Nihilita or Melanta—a watcher, basically.

I think it's the same with Paimon. I don't think she's part of any of the current existing shades. Especially after now that we have an indirect confirmation that Asmoday/Shade of space is with the traveler's twin. Also a reminder that one Melusine in Fontaine said Paimon has a string connected to the sky—meaning she's part of teyvat, not an outsider like the traveler.

Finale of the Deep Galleries deserved the hype Hymns of the Far North got. (It's true)

I remember when first reading it one of the things that stood out to me was this...

>Alone she walked through the ruins of the Spiral Abyss, intent on finding the trail of the voyager that the magical swordmaster had spoken of...

The very first mention of the Spiral Abyss since the release of the game.

Towers

The "Tower" seems to be something relevant across all of the Unified Civilization, and even made it past that era...

Dawning Frost

>The cities scattered across the land pursued their own paths of good and evil while the divine envoys stood by in silence, watching all unfold.
Until the kings of the lands dared test the eternal heavens.
And only then did the great towers fall in flame, burying the cries of the slaves.

Towers built during the cyclical era (see the four tiaras and dawning frost) of the Unified Civilization, the ones prior to the Golden City's creation.

Steeple of Ignorance

>In the ancient past, man-made towers that could touch the skies were built all across the land. Though human hearts flowed downward, their souls aspired toward the high heavens. These towers would always fall, or collapse under their own weight and plummet into the depths. However, if one were to look at things at a grander scale, the heavens and earth are as one — no direction is truly different from another.

Oddly similar to the Spiral Abyss description!

Spiral Abyss

>Rumor has it that people who've ascended to Celestia have also witnessed the same helix-shaped divine ladder that can be seen within Visions. Venturing out into the universe and down into the abyss are the same in that both are braving the dark unknown.

This is apparently a Khaenri'ah saying... and they also built towers?

Crimson Moon's Semblance

>Thus they yearned for transcendent individuals to build countless glorious towers, and prayed for the long-dead Crimson Moon to bring them salvation.

Transcendent individuals reminds me of Descenders, and also, the Tower of Ipsissimus.

Tower of Ipsissimus

>The Tower of Ipsissimus comes from an old concept from the ancient Fontainian kingdom of Remuria, and was used to describe a powerful will that could rule, sustain, and destroy the world.

Towers, according to Remurians, are indicative of ruling, sustenance, and the destruction of the world... clearly a reference to the will of a descender, formed by creation, destruction, protection and sustenance of a world...

I believe this means that the Towers are indicative of Descenders? or "Transcendent ones"? Could also be "Primordial Humans" if they're any different - as Ajax is related to the Narzissenkreuz text and Hyperborea.

Hyperborea's Golden Tower

This would in a way explain why Koitar and Seutervoinen decided to build an enormous golden tower in Hyperborea.

>"Come now, come... Let us recast these absurd laws with bone, and nourish the barren north with blood."
"Let us build a city and a tower that soars up to the clouds, that the people of the earth need weep bitter tears no longer."

But it doesn't explain the mention of the Spiral Abyss.

Every piece of Finale of the Deep Galleries contains some part that talks about Skirk's exploration of Hyperborea, where she finds specific things, in specific locations.

- before the withered husk of a silver tree
- among the Abyssal remnants
- before the golden tower
- through a tattered veil
- the ruins of the Spiral Abyss intent on finding the trail of the voyager that the magical swordmaster had spoken of...

Interesting stuff. Surtalogi sent Skirk to look for Voyager... in the Spiral Abyss? Which is also in Hyperborea? Which has a Golden Tower? The only logical explanation here and quite obvious one that people have made throughout the last year is that the Golden Tower is the Spiral Abyss. That makes sense. Additionally, the code name for Finale of the Deep Galleries internally is...

https://preview.redd.it/gwhrakj1llxg1.png?width=760&format=png&auto=webp&s=564f245e4607e6e850c15abe1403f958705937ca

It could mean anything, not like file names are ever meant to be seen- but I do find it interesting. Could also just mean that the deep galleries are the spiral abyss, and not the tower.

The Golden Tower explanation works fine until you consider...

Pilos Peak

The merciless face of the world, it fills me with fear...

Pilos Peak was once an incredibly tall mountain, possibly the tallest, and its remains after Venti grabbed blender seem to be Musk Reef, where the Spiral Abyss currently is. Granted that it is a portal and not the tower, but it's still interesting, because that means it should've been in Mondstadt. So where was Pilos Peak?

The most logical explanation is the mountain Vindagnyr, now known as Dragonspine, as it is close to Musk Reef, and the current peak of Vindagnyr looks very unnatural and almost like if it was carved out. Very much like what Venti could've done to it. That would suggest that the Spiral Abyss was on the peak of Dragonspine...

This matches a little bit with Aubade of Morningstar and Moon...

>Thus, the peoples of the earth offered their greatest devotion to the Lady Mothers of the Moonlit Night.
Some would ascend the heights of Vindagnyr, presenting laurel-crowned verses to the bright moons;

Where they would go to the peak of Vindangyr to pray to the moons. You may remember that the Spiral Abyss has a portion called the "Abyssal Moon Spire", has the "Moment of New Moon", and also has Floor 11 where you can visibly see a moon (Very unexplained)

It could work but this doesn't exactly tell you how Hyperborea has anything to do with this, Vindagnyr and Hyperborea are very far from eachother.... or maybe it doesn't matter.

Hyperborea to Sal Vindagnyr

While in my eyes Finale was better than Hymns it is still very useful of course.

In Naberius' prayer there is something very interesting said by the Frostmoon Scions:

>Hear me, O noble Maadteraahka, mother of gods and mortals,
From Hyperborea to Sal Vindagnyr, your compassion is revered by all.

Sure girl

To be clear I imagine this means something like "throughout the whole world", but I do find it really interesting because there are definitely areas further away from Hyperborea during that time, like Delphi Pytho, or the Pre-Thunderbird Civilization in present day Tsurumi... why SPECIFICALLY Sal Vindagnyr?

and there IS something kind of unexplained about Sal Vindagnyr and it is the ORIGIN of its people!

Sal Vindagnyr people are said to come from a land of snow and strife. As far as I understand, there are no other snowy areas during the Unified Civilization other than Hyperborea? I may be wrong, I've heard this could be referring to Arcadia, but I can't find a reason to why this would be true?

I don't exactly know when or why Hyperboreans could've moved to Sal Vindagnyr if they even did but it is something worth looking into

Conclusion

There's not really any I can make, hence why I used the question tag, I more so wanna hear people's thoughts as this is a part of Hyperborea lore that I find really interesting alongside the possible Khaenri'ah connections

Some of my thoughts... (Not very serious, random ideas)

Golden Tower and the Elysium Project
The Spiral Abyss portal may have lead to Hyperborea or the Golden Tower to be specific, when the clans of the Unified Civilization united under Koitar's rebellion (Elysium Project), with Sal Vindagnyr being a part of it. I believe Seutervoinen encouraged space exploration so this would be interesting, as the spiral abyss leads to it.

>Unlike our ancestors, who wallowed in superstition and barbarism, prostrating at the feet of the Heavenly Emissaries, ours is an era of great progress. All the clans have united as one to shape the world into an Elysium for humankind alone. Guided by Dawn's Navigator and the Exalted Saint, we draw closer to this goal with each passing day...
...
Are the sky-faring ships constructed with Mekhaneikos able to freely soar among the stars, exploring the true cosmos? Perhaps you're now able to journey to the home planet of the Exalted Saint...

The reunited united civilization. wonderful. Unfortunately nothing in Sal Vindagnyr lore suggests this, but also, Sal Vindagnyr has 0 mentions of the funerary year, 0 mentions of the moon, yet it is placed in the timeline at that time, and the devs have confirmed Sal Vindagnyr worshipped the moon sisters. A very sad tale of early writing, I think.

^(It was once said by the developers of Dragonspine that its story was largely hidden so players could find their own explanation, but we don't really know how much this differs from your average area, as this was also the first ever expansion.)

Pohjola
This does not explain the relation between Dragonspine and Hyperborea but it is interesting if you allow yourself some creativity (6.3 area being Pohjola kinda ruins this)

We opened the spiral abyss, and we are a Descender. Pakkaisukko needed a Descender (Saarelainen) to open the gates of Pohjola. Pohjola might be the Spiral Abyss in Hyperborea.

I don't know how well it matches with wings of the silent moon or Belyi Tsar lore in general.

Multiple Golden Towers
As we saw earlier, the Unified Civilization built many towers. what is there to say that they're not all their own spiral abyss? Kind of weird though considering that these are the only two cases.
- Meropis did have a tower but I'm pretty sure it was only built when Remus arrived.
- Lang-Gan (or chasm civ) has an upside down tower with an upside down fountain that has funny effects, I guess.
- Delphi Pytho didn't as far as we know, only when it became Enkanomiya.

If any comments have any thoughts I'll update the post (if given permission, and with credit)