r/CatholicPhilosophy

The doctrine of Immaculate Conception simply makes sense.

As someone coming from Evangelical Baptist to Catholicism, I find the doctrine of Immaculate Conception to be very much more sensible than Mary having original sin, as is what Baptists and generally any Evangelical believes. I've been thinking about it more and more lately, and I just can't shake the fact that it makes more sense.

I know I'm kinda preaching to the choir here, but I'll explain anyway. Even though there are many verses and passages in Scripture that state that all have sinned, statements that would include Mother Mary if one takes a flat literal interpretation to it, I think when one considers the sinless nature of Christ, a better interpretation of what Original Sin is, as well as God's ill-tolerance of sin, the doctrine simply makes a lot of sense to even non-Catholics.

Firstly, Christ is utterly sinless until the Passion. Pretty everyone agrees on this. He was born with Original Sin, nor was He ever disobedient with the Father throughput His life, He simply bore our sins for our salvation. Original Sin, as St. Augustine teaches in "Confessions", passes from Adam to us, it is inborn, only taken away ordinarily by the grace of God through baptism and inordinately means of grace, like the Immaculate Conception of Blessed Mary. Another example can be the thief on the cross, who Christ forgave as He died. Another note to make is that sin is not natural to man's nature. Scripture plainly teaches that we were created perfect without sin. It is only from sin that we're able to die and not live wholly in our nature as human beings. So sin is a pure corruption of that which exists, not having existence on it own.

Secondly, God can not tolerate sin. This is also very clear from Scripture. Christ is not born with sin, God can not deny Himself, and the essence of sin (sort to speak) is to deny the Will of God. So if God is truly to be incarcerated into flesh, He must do so without even the slightest possibility of sinfulness being present, thus is why Mary was a virgin, no other person with Original Sin to potentially introduce it into Christ. The Holy Spirit, who is God, conceives of the body of Christ in Mary. But it also follows that Mary too must be sinless. For if Original Sin is inborn and she has sinned, then Christ would obviously assume a sinful nature from birth. There is no evidence that Mary has ever sinned against God in Scripture, so to assume that she did merely because of verses and passages that speak of humanity in a general sense is to conflate their meaning.

Mary has to be sinless in order for Christ Himself to be sinless. It matches what has been revealed about God's character in His complete ill-tolarence for sin. It thusly follows that, in an even perfect order to ensure that Christ is sinless, that Mary was also wholly without sin,and thus not having Original Sin, and thus her Immaculate Conception. There can be no possibility of sin in Christ, not in His divine or human nature, which is key here, until the Passion. So Mary, too, must be sinless.

Tbh, I'm still thinking it through, but it is mystery to me. I'd like to see yall's criticisms or responses. Thanks.

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u/PerfectAdvertising41 — 12 hours ago

If God knows who will sin before they sin—because God knows everything—why create such souls in the first place?

I mean, why doesn't God simply refrain from creating beings that He knows will be evil in the future?

Edit: I am not referring, clearly, to the one who sins by failing to share a piece of an apple because he wanted to eat the whole thing out of gluttony. I am speaking of the one who commits atrocities that would make us all vomit. Why does God create such souls if He knows what they will become?

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u/Expensive-Party2116 — 7 hours ago

Is this a good introduction to St. Thomas?

Has anyone read this collection of writings by Thomas Aquinas of Penguin Classics? https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/260880/selected-writings-of-thomas-aquinas-by-thomas-aquinas/ Do you recommend it as an introduction to his most famous works? Im a bit familiar with his earlier books and his theology and metaphysics, but I would really like to start reading some of his bigger texts without directly getting into Summa Theologiae. Im also asking if anyone has read this because I cant seem to find the list of writings that are included in the book. Thank you very much.

u/Wise-Veterinarian-97 — 13 hours ago

Questions about personality and the soul

The church teaches that personality comes from the soul and the soul comes from God, so why then does God give some people personalities which have lower self control, psychopathy etc since these are all personality traits that incline people more to sin, why does it seem like he sets some people up with a personality more inclined to a virtuous and good life and others with personality types more inclined to a sinful life?

And what role does the brain have in personality, since studies have shown that certain factors like childhood trauma can change people's personality (which is why so many serial killers and dictators have come from abusive households) but if personality comes from the soul and the soul does not change how does this make sense. Surely the brain must have some influence on your personality, no?

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u/Quiet-Photograph-468 — 8 hours ago

Why does God’s behavior change between the OT and NT?

I know this seems like a weird question that probably has an answer or it’s just a bad “objection”, but it’s something that I discovered through the “God’s ego death theory”, here’s a short and simple summery of it:

In the OT, God destroyed cities for being sinners.

In the New Testament God is all about forgiving and being loving, so in between these testaments God had an “ego death” or lost his ego.

Do I think it’s a good objection? Not really, but I do find it weird that God was at first “aggressive” to sinners up until the NT where he’s about being loving and forgiving.

Maybe there’s an answer to this that seems obvious that I’m not catching but an explanation would be nice, thank you.

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Is Existential Inertia actually a threat to classical theism? I don’t think so.

In his long post on the Existential Inertia Thesis, Joe Schmid formulates EIT as follows:

>Existential Inertia Thesis (EIT): For each member O of some (proper or improper) sub-set of temporal concrete objects and for each time t such that O exists at some time t* earlier than t, (i) at t, O does not ontologically depend on the existence or activity of some concrete object O*, where O* is not a (proper or improper) part of O, and (ii) if O is not positively destroyed within the temporal interval [t*, t], then O exists at t.

The question is not simply whether this is true, but what it actually excludes. Once the terms are fixed, the supposed conflict with classical theism becomes difficult to sustain.

What is O*?

O is explicitly restricted to temporal concrete objects. O*, however, is left as “some concrete object,” without any temporal qualifier. This creates an ambiguity about the scope of the denial.

If O* is understood as ranging only over temporal concrete objects, then EIT says that temporal objects do not depend on other temporal objects for their persistence. But any thesis that denies only temporal-to-temporal sustaining causes is compatible with classical theism, and more than merely compatible, it is exactly what classical theism would predict. Aquinas argues (ST I, q. 104, a. 1) that created agents within the same order are causes of becoming (causa fieri), not causes of being as such (causa essendi). A builder brings a house into existence, but does not sustain its existence once built. In the same way, no temporal agent accounts for the continued being of another in the relevant sense. So on this reading, EIT does not oppose classical theism at all; it articulates a constraint that classical theism not only affirms but explains.

If, on the other hand, O* is meant to range more broadly so as to exclude any sustaining cause whatsoever, including non-temporal ones, then a further step is required. The issue is not merely how such causes are categorized, but whether there is any justification for extending the domain of O* beyond temporal concrete objects. As stated, no such justification is provided. Without it, the move from “no dependence on external concrete objects” to “no dependence on any sustaining cause whatsoever” does not follow.

As stated, the thesis denies dependence only on “some concrete object O*,” while O itself is explicitly restricted to temporal concrete objects. So the inference from:

  • no dependence on other temporal concrete objects

to:

  • no dependence on any sustaining cause whatsoever

does not follow unless one first shows that all possible sustaining causes fall within the range of O* as defined. Without that, the exclusion of non-temporal causes is simply asserted, not established.

Can a descriptive thesis rule out divine conservation?

Schmid explicitly presents EIT as a descriptive thesis rather than an explanatory one. It describes how temporal objects persist, not why they persist.

But a purely descriptive account of temporal processes cannot, by itself, exclude a metaphysical explanation of those processes. Divine conservation is not a competing description of what happens within the temporal order. It is a claim about the ground of that order as such.

So even if EIT is correct as a description, it does not follow that divine conservation is false. In fact, a classical theist can accept the descriptive content of EIT and treat divine conservation as the explanation of why that description holds. A description that omits a cause is not evidence that the cause is absent, especially when the cause in question would not appear within the same domain as the description.

The argument only generates a conflict with classical theism if two further steps are taken:

  • that the domain of O* extends to all possible sustaining causes, including non-temporal ones
  • that a descriptive account of persistence has the explanatory force to rule out metaphysical explanations of that persistence

Neither of these steps is established by EIT itself.

Questions

If EIT is understood as a descriptive thesis about temporal objects, it is compatible with classical theism and can even be explained by it. If it is taken to exclude all sustaining causes whatsoever, then that conclusion depends on additional assumptions about the scope of the quantifier in the thesis and about the reach of descriptive claims.

So the real questions are these: what justifies extending O* beyond temporal concrete objects, and how can a purely descriptive thesis rule out a metaphysical explanation of why that description holds?

Until those are answered, EIT does not do the work it is supposed to do.

u/actus_energeia — 1 day ago

Does the Son give Divine Essence to the Holy Spirit as Filioque? Yes or No?

Is the Filioque where The Son gives the Holy Spirit Divine Essence and anything less such as Divine Energies, Manifestation and Economic Profession do NOT qualify? Does it mean that it doesn't matter if it is "through the Son" or "from the Son" but what matters is that the Son gives Divine Essence to the Holy Spirit if yes then it is Filioque but if not then no, am I correct or wrong?

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u/Any-Solid8810 — 14 hours ago
▲ 1 r/CatholicPhilosophy+1 crossposts

Biblically speaking, we are gods

"I have said: You are gods." (Ps 82:6)

Biologically speaking, human beings are apes (Hominidae).

Biblically speaking, human beings are gods.

Adam and Eve

According to the second biblical story of creation [Genesis 2:4b–3:2], Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise because they ate fruit from the tree to categorize good and evil.

The tree to categorize good and evil gave Adam and Eve the ability to categorize something as good or not good in itself.

  • Before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they could categorize something as good or not good for something, but they could not categorize something as good or not good in itself.
  • After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they could also categorize something as good or not good in itself.

With the ability to categorize something as good or not good in itself, Adam and Eve categorized nakedness as not good. Therefore, they sewed together fig-tree leaves.

When Adam and Eve categorized nakedness as not good, nakedness was not good. No matter what God might have said or done.

With the ability to categorize something as good or not good in itself, Adam and Eve had become "like god" (Gn 3:5).

Genesis 2:4b—3:24 is undoubtedly a myth, but Genesis 2:4b—3:24 is a myth with a message. The message is: Human beings are gods expelled from paradise.

The human race descends from Eve, and the human race inherits from Eve the ability to categorize something as good or not good in itself.

Apes do not have that same ability.

Apes can categorize something as good or not good for something, but apes cannot categorize something as good or not good in itself.

Human beings are gods. Apes are not gods.

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u/Preben5087 — 3 days ago

Are social skills lesser than things like math and philosophy?

I know technically social skills can be a science or derived from philosophy, but when I say social, I mean “street smarts”.

It always seemed to me that social abilities seem to leach off the accomplishments of actual labor.

For example a king has authority, but he is in no way capable of inventing new weapons to defend his kingdom most of the time, nor did he work the hardest, come up with new inventions. Yet he is treated disproportionally well.

In another place, a person who can make others laugh an be happy and hold a conversation might have just as close of a bond with many people as another person who has saved said people’s’ lives.

A person can much more easily make money as a smooth talking business man or even good communication than a capable engineer even though the engineer provides the value.

With God, Jesus is king because He is the most high, but with human, why does the act of talking the right way and manipulating people through words have such a disproportionate utility compared to other skills? By making others do things for you and skipping out on the hard work yourself?

I was curious on potentially mastering my social abilities, but wouldn’t studying philosophy or science be a far more valuable pursuit than speaking better words and making other hard working people do things on my behalf? Is that really a talent worth the same as say being a musician?

Should I count preaching as social skills? Perhaps that shows I am completely wrong.

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u/Ok-Cicada-5207 — 1 day ago

A question regarding God's free will and His absolute perfection.

If God is that which is absolutely perfect, then—by virtue of His perfection—He cannot commit any error, make any mistake, or, in short, do anything that might not be the best course of action. Why? Because He is perfect, and the perfect is incompatible with the imperfect. Therefore, it seems that God can only create that which is best, in accordance with His wise intentions. And, as we know, God created Nature—or the Universe—which seems to indicate that Nature (or the Universe) is the best thing God could have created. Consequently, we live in the best of all possible worlds. This carries clear implications for God's free will; for if God, by virtue of His perfection, can only do what is best—and *only* what is best—then, in reality, for any given thing, He can only bring it about in one single way: the best possible way.

Argument:

  1. God, by virtue of His perfection, can only do what is best whenever He acts.

  2. For any given action, there exists only one way of performing it that qualifies as the best way.

Because:

  1. If there were more than one way of doing things that were equally good, then there would be no sufficient reason to choose one over the other.

But:

  1. Every fact has a sufficient reason for being exactly as it is, and not otherwise.

Therefore:

  1. God can only do things in one specific way.

Therefore:

  1. God lacks counterfactual free will.

It seems that this leaves God without free will. How can we resolve this issue? I find it strange that only Leibniz seems to have partially recognized this, while other philosophers seem to have overlooked it completely.

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u/Expensive-Party2116 — 1 day ago
▲ 2 r/CatholicPhilosophy+1 crossposts

How do you find spiritual peace when life feels overwhelming?

I’ve been going through a season of uncertainty, and I’m trying to lean more into prayer and trust in God.

What practices or Scriptures help you reconnect with Christ when your mind feels scattered?

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u/Smooth_Bit176 — 1 day ago

Dúvida

Não sei se essa comunidade é adequada para eu compartilhar a minha dúvida e peço desculpas se não for. Mas como cristão, eu tenho uma dúvida sobre a moral cristã e gostaria de compartilhá-la aqui a fim de desenvolver uma resposta.

Jesus disse: "Eu sou a ressurreição e a vida; quem crê em mim, ainda que esteja morto, viverá". Muitos dos contemporâneos de Jesus presenciaram os seus milagres, mas se não tivessem presenciado, poderiam muito bem ter perdido completamente a fé. O exemplo mais famoso é o de Tomé, que mesmo tendo testemunhado milagres, não acreditou que Jesus havia ressuscitado. Para as pessoas que vivem 2000 anos depois, é muito mais difícil crer, pois elas não têm as mesmas oportunidades de testemunhar milagres, ainda por cima alguns conhecimentos científicos bem concretos parecem refutar as histórias divinas. A minha pergunta é: como pode ser justo que essas pessoas sejam julgadas com o mesmo parâmetro que as testemunharam os atos de Jesus? Visto que alguns trechos da Bíblia dizem que quem não crê será condenado? Por exemplo: “Quem nele crê não é condenado, mas quem não crê já está condenado...”, “Quem crer e for batizado será salvo; mas quem não crer será condenado.”, “Quem não está comigo está contra mim; e quem comigo não ajunta, espalha.”. Além disso, muitos homens justos e bons buscam exaustivamente algum sinal de que sua fé é verdadeira e nada lhes é dado.

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u/DryPound9149 — 1 day ago

Pergunta de um niilista e pesimista aos católicos.

Faço essa pergunta sem querer desmerce-los, como vocês justificam a dualismo de substâncias e a concepção de natureza fixa, aristotélica-tomista com a teoria da evolução?

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u/Leandrocurioso — 3 days ago

Death, the Fall, and Evolution.

This may be silly, but I'm quite curious.

A lot of Catholics (even bigger, more prominent Catholics) seem to hold that evolution is totally compatible with the faith. But is it?

I mean, the story of Eden involves death being introduced to mankind via the sin of Adam and Eve. I think that's very clear (though I read that maybe this was a 'spiritual death'? If so, what does that mean?).

But, if that's the case, how can evolution be compatible? Adam and Eve, at least to me, seem very clearly to be fully-developed humans. And if death does not exist yet, then how could evolution- a process which involves death- happen?

And I was trying to work this out myself, but I came to several roadblocks:

1.) The Allegorical solution: Genesis, Adam and Eve, Eden, purely allegorical. Which, to some extent, yeah. The first Chapter of Genesis is clearly poetry, which establishes simply that God created the world from nothing out of Goodness. But I think this poses some issues with Christ's ultimate sacrifice (at least in my mind). Like, did he come to fulfill the literary requirements of an ancient Hebrew author he inspired?

2.) 'Spiritual death' as the punishment. If this means that we can die separated from God, then... What's the point of Eden? The lifespans of Adam and Eve? Or even our glorified bodies, which would be in a state of Theosis (unlike Adam and Eve seemed to have been), would we still be susceptible to death?

3.) Adam and Eve and other humans. It seems to be a very common belief that Adam and Eve were not the only two, but this seems rather fickle. Were Adam and Eve just made to be fully modern humans while people evolved around them and died slowly? How did Adam and Eve represent humanity?

I know this may be a silly post, but Catholicism's main subreddits seem to be filled with a wide number of often problematic figures and responses.

Any help would be appreciated.

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u/Radiant_Flamingo4995 — 3 days ago

How can I begin studying philosophy?

What books, authors, and topics would you recommend for me to start studying philosophy? I'm thinking of starting with Plato, but which books should I read?

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u/Cool_Juice9626 — 4 days ago