r/AnCap101

Grounding the NAP

Grounding the NAP

My apologies if this was posted already. I enjoy this podcast because it’s its back in forth with former Ancaps and critics.

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u/Gilgamesh8 — 2 days ago

When would children move out in ancapistan?

I can't remember whether it was a conversation about anarcho-capitalism specifically, or rather one about homeschooling, but I remember Bryan Caplan once mentioning in a video that in the absence of compulsory K-12 schooling, he thinks children would likely move out and get their adult lives started at 12-13, or something along those lines. Well, I think Bryan might have a point.

I think most 12-13 year olds are perfectly capable, physically and mentally, of taking care of themselves. The only reason they don't is because there's a million and one legal obstacles in their way. Compulsory education laws force kids to be in school, not allowing them to do other things. Labor laws prevent minors from entering voluntary employment agreements. And even if they can work, the kinds of work they can do as well as the hours are limited. On top of that, 12 year olds cannot open bank accounts in their own name, buy or rent real estate, drive, take out loans, or invest in the stock market. So even if you're perfectly capable of doing all of those things, the state delays your growth and wealth creation in life by at least 5 years, which is both unethical and economically unfavorable. In ancapistan, though, none of these barriers would exist.

Thoughts anyone?

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u/counwovja0385skje — 1 day ago

Libertarians (An-Cap or otherwise) need to understand this: US Sovereign Debt is THE problem of our times, and it is driven by ENTITLEMENTS

I was in high school during the first Obama term, when the TEA Party movement was all the rage, Occupy Wall Street was a thing, and you know what was the biggest, most talked about political issue for a couple of years between 2008 and 2011 or so?

The debt, the deficit, and Federal spending.

Since that time, the fundamental picture of the Federal government's finances has not changed at all.

The US Federal Government is headed for a fiscal crisis in the near future, within the next ten years and possibly by the time the next president is inaugurated the crisis will already be upon us!

Here's the basic facts of the situation:

Federal spending on all military-related purposes (including healthcare for veterans!) accounts for less than 20% of total Federal spending.

Here's a breakdown of Federal spending by category, from the US Treasury Department:

  • 22 % Social Security

  • 14 % Net Interest

  • 14 % Health

  • 14 % Medicare

  • 13 % National Defense

  • 10 % Income Security

  • 6 % Veterans Benefits and Services

Collectively, Federal military spending (combined with Veterans benefits) makes up about 19% of all Federal expenditures.

Just Social Security plus Medicare/Medicaid accounts for half of all Federal spending -- literally 50% of all Federal expenditures. We are spending twice as much on old age pensions and healthcare for the poor and old than we spend on the military.

Add to that the amount of money the Federal government spends on interest payments for our outstanding debt and spending on means-tested welfare ("income security"), and literally three-quarters (74%) of the Federal budget is spent on some form of welfare, entitlement, or the debt.

Moreover, from the CATO Institute:

> The Congressional Budget Office now projects that over the next 10 years, the United States will borrow an additional $25 trillion. About $16 trillion of that will go toward interest payments alone. By 2036, interest costs, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are projected to consume 100 percent of federal revenues.

> Read that again.

> Under current law, within a decade, every dollar collected in revenue will go toward autopilot entitlements and debt service, leaving nothing for national defense or any other core function of government. See Figure 1 if you, too, need to see it to believe it.

Source: https://www.cato.org/blog/us-fiscal-dominance-coming-fiscal-inflection-point-how-congress-can-fix-debt-crisis-its-too

And if you think there is an easy way out of this situation: think again!

A lot of people seem to have no idea of the scale of this problem. I've seen some people seriously contend we could balance the budget by simply cutting foreign aid.

Nonsense! All foreign aid comprises less than 1% of the Federal budget. Should it be eliminated entirely? Absolutely, but that's not going to even put a dent in the spending problem, let alone 'solve' a problem caused, overwhelmingly, by entitlement spending. For fun, I did a back of the envelope calculation about foreign aid to Israel versus Social Security spending, and the US government spends more on Social Security in one year than has been given to Israel in aid money in the entire history of Israel's existence. Remember that next time you see a libertarian complaining about aid money to Israel (which should be eliminated, to be clear, but let's not pretend as if that is the cause of our government's fiscal woes).

I've seen lots of libertarians say that if the US would just stop waging foreign wars and intervening abroad, that would solve our fiscal problem. No it won't.

As I pointed out at the beginning: all military spending combined, along with healthcare and benefits for veterans, accounts for less than 20% of total Federal spending. Cutting military spending would help, but we could totally eliminate all military spending and still have a fiscal crisis on our hands. Remember: under current law the Federal government will be mandated to spend 100% of its revenues on Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and debt payments by the mid-2030s.

Even liberal think tanks (who are serious and take this problem seriously) admit: there is no easy solution to this problem. Inevitably, to solve this will require increasing taxes and cutting spending, so says even the Brookings Institution (Brookings is pretty left-of-center).

You can't put tariffs on imports and solve this problem.

You can't raise taxes high enough to pay for all the money the Federal government has promised to spend. The US government has a spending problem not a problem raising revenue. Spending can always outpace tax revenue; there is no upper limit to the amount of money a government can spend, but there is a very real, hard limit to the amount of money a government can extract in taxes, with the harmful economic effects compounding and worsening the more a government taxes (leading to the death spiral of higher tax rates yielding lower and lower amounts of tax revenue, both net and gross).

The only way out of this problem is to cut spending. Having robust economic growth would also help a lot, but it's unlikely, if not impossible, to have enough economic growth for that alone to solve this problem without spending cuts and, probably, some increase in taxes (as much as I hate to say it).

You know what else will help? More immigration. Immigrants created a vast fiscal savings for the government because immigrants in the United States consume welfare at lower rates compared to native citizens, and while non-citizens can be eligible for entitlements like Social Security, only a minority of them actually qualify (compared to the vast majority of native-born citizens, who are automatically enrolled in Social Security). So, while the ideal would be that no one is entitled to any welfare spending, from a purely fiscal point of view, it is preferable that American citizens have zero children, and instead we let in infinite numbers of immigrants.

You don't like that idea, would be my guess, but don't blame me, the messenger: I'm simply telling you what the incentives of the welfare state point to!

I'm adamantly in favor of immigration for other reasons (it's a basic human liberty to be able to move around without state-imposed restrictions, immigration is good for an economy, and so on), but I understand these days many "libertarians" are opposed to immigration. For what it's worth, I think the best argument against immigration is the fact that it helps prop up the welfare state (and, ironically, most anti-immigration arguments are predicated on preserving the welfare state, but only for the native citizens of a country -- the idea that we should have socialism but for the nation, a kind of nationalist socialism, if you will).

You need to understand: the fiscal crisis will compel the Federal government to admit more and more immigrants, legal or not, because on some level the people in government understand that immigrants are useful tax cattle who can be made to pay more in tax revenues without also requiring equivalent or greater expenditures.

This is why throughout most of the Western World (especially Europe) immigration continues to be "too high" even in the face of overwhelming opposition to immigration from voters: because the bureaucrats understand what voters choose not to, that you can have a welfare state or you can have a ban on immigrants, but you can't have both.

Not when the welfare state has systematically over-promised benefits because the welfare state was designed by Otto von Bismarck back in the days when birth-rates were exponentially higher and life-spans much shorter. You could get away with a Ponzi-scheme welfare state where you tax young working people all their working lives and give some benefits for a couple of years to the few who reach old age at the very end of their lives. When the average person dies before the age of 70 and there are about 20 working age people for every 1 retiree, the math works out. When you have an aging population and people routinely live into their 80s, the math collapses, especially in a democracy where you have larger numbers of older voters than younger voters, not only because you have numerically more old people, but also because old people vote at higher rates, and tend to vote as a bloc on the issue of welfare benefits, whereas younger voters tend to be more splintered.

I say all this because I've come to realize that probably a majority of libertarians in the movement today don't know any of this, what I would consider both basic facts and the most important issue facing us today.

Instead, so many libertarians want to waste time talking about non-issues like transgender children or whatever. So so so many libertarians will bang on about foreign wars and foreign aid and immigrants -- for all the talk among libertarians about the "uniparty" and how the Democrats and Republicans are all the same, it's shameful that libertarians have bought into the biggest example of the uniparty: the consensus that our government should spend more than it takes in taxes and never talk about this issue let alone do anything to reform it.

u/PaperbackWriter66 — 3 days ago

Do you think ethnic cultural identities will survive the transition to a borderless world?

I am convinced that statism will end within the next 100 years; and with that I'm convinced that borders will also disappear, effectively ending the concept of nation states. Since the internet has connected the whole world, and traveling across continents is easier than ever, and English has become the global lingua-franca, there's no longer the barriers that lead to the evolution of local variations and uniqueness in culture. So given that, I wonder if local cultures will maintain a presence in a world where anyone is allowed to live anywhere.

For example let's say you have a place like Egypt where everyone speaks Arabic. Since borders no longer exist, anyone is allowed to move to what we call "Egypt" and live how they want. So if you go to Egypt in the year 2150, long after humanity has abandoned statism, what are the chances it will still be a predominantly Arabic-speaking location? And this can be said for every place. Do you think local places will still retain unique elements despite the free movement of people? Or will the whole world become really similar regardless of location?

Looking to see what ancaps think. Thanks!

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u/Hkvnr495___dkcx37 — 3 days ago

Hello, I was invited to talk to police. I am below the drinking age and they want me to tell them who sold me alcohol. I obviously do not want to get them in trouble, because they did nothing wrong. But I am quite bad at acting under pressure. What should I do without getting myself or that person in trouble?

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u/Rich_Possession_8706 — 10 days ago

I know Ayn Rand isn't ancap but this applies to lots of other libertarian shit:

If you say you oppose Nazis, and then you buy a candy bar from a store known to be run by Nazis, you are a hypocrite, but a specific kind.

You are not just a hypocrite, you are a *causal* hypocrite. Your actions are *causing* Nazis to, well, exist and/or be Nazis, by supporting them directly, financially.

But say you say you oppose Nazis, and then you *shoplift* a candy bar from a store known to be run by Nazis.

You are a hypocrite, but an *ontological* hypocrite, not a causal hypocrite.

The action you are taking and the benefit you are receiving does rely on the *existence* of the Nazis and their system, but you aren't *causing* it.

So that means you aren't doing anything wrong, because guess what? If someone pointed a gun at you to threaten you, and you were able to somehow take their gun from them and shoot them with it, guess what that would make you? An ontological hypocrite and not a causal hypocrite.

Your self defense would be dependent on the *existence* of the gun, but you would be doing nothing wrong.

So Ayn Rand WAS a hypocrite, but not the kind that did anything wrong.

Thoughts?

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u/bigdonut100 — 11 days ago

If anyone has watched this movie, I'm pretty sure this is pretty much the same thing with the movie elysium lots of commies lie to smear against anarcho capitalism. To sum it up it's a movie where society is under corporatism rule in a 🇺🇸 technocratic rule. In retrospect, if these type of societies were to attempt to exist, wouldn't that enable private security defense agency firms to go after these societies that are violating the NAP? I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I think it's important to focus on this manner as many ignorant people who lie about libertarianism always jump the gun to these conclusions that fool many people who are not intelligent with philosophy at all.

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u/Important-Valuable36 — 11 days ago

I've read The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose and it definitely makes a good point highlighting how belief in statism is religious belief, but I want to go deeper. Does anyone have good recommendations? Thanks!

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u/Xotngoos335 — 12 days ago

Let's say there's a little community living on a plot of land. Maybe it's a hippie ancom commune, maybe it's a cult, I don't know. They are on a plot of land, raise kids there, and are isolating themselves from society.

Within the community, their kids are growing up with no concept of the NAP. The kids are abused, the members are beaten, etc. There are many NAP violations, but the people who grew up in this isolated community do not know any better because it is all they know.

Now let's think about what happens in a statist society. The state sees this and, at least in theory, is now obligated to send the police in and stop this. This community would have created a de facto state, but since there is already a state on the outside, it will stop this community from doing what they do.

Now let's say this happened in an ancap society. Who will protect those people? Who will go in and stop these NAP violations being committed within an isolated community that knows nothing else?

If someone can do that, what incentives do they have to do that?

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u/PrettyDark2982 — 13 days ago