u/stlatos

Egyptian "Tale of Two Brothers"

In https://www.academia.edu/165599219 Patrice Lajoye compared the Egyptian "Tale of Two Brothers", with Anup and his younger brother Bata (who married a woman made by the 9 gods, given a "spark" from each) to the Greek Prometheus and his younger brother Epimetheus (who married a woman made by the god Hephaestus, given a gift from each). Bata's wife betrayed him many times, Epimetheus's wife unintentionally unleashed many evils.

Prometheus & Epimetheus are, in several ways, also related to the giant Ἀλωάδαι \ Aloadae (Otos and Ephialtes), the Indian Sunda & Upasunda, other brothers in Celtic myths, etc. Some of these are enemies or opponents of the Gods, who make a woman intending for her to betray them. The motif of betrayal is linked with an external heart/soul, making one man difficult to kill, or other conditions that must be met to kill him (neither day nor night, etc.). In all these, the dead man undergoing 3 stages of resurrection (in which a burned tree leaves a splinter from which the next can arise, etc.) are prominent, found in similar form across Europe & matching that in Egypt.

Lajoye's idea that it might be recent (compared to its earliest attestation) seems very unlikely to me. These are too intertwined with myths of origins, etc., for that to be really practical. In an ancient & primitive culture, magic men being able to remove their hearts & place them hidden in safekeeping to avoid death are much more believable than in any later culture. Having this belief, including it in a very early story about trying to & failing to avoid death seems natural.

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u/stlatos — 4 hours ago

Indus Script, comb pot fox

In the Indus Script, the combination "comb pot fox" is common, & found on metal. Others have looked for very complex ways to interpret these facts, but I think (based on https://www.reddit.com/r/language/comments/1scrp6d/indus_script_twoended_carryingpole_tigers_ishtar/ ), that :

comb pot fox

kaṁ ha lo

*lohaka-ṁ 'a piece of metal' (Sanskrit lohaka-ḥ 'metal')

lo for S. lōpāśá-ḥ 'fox, jackal', kaṁ for káṅkata-ḥ 'comb' (Pk. kaṁkaya-), ha for 'pot/jar' (Indic *hautra-, Av. zaōθra-, G. khútrā ‘earthen pot’) or havís- 'oblation, offering'. The value of ha has been described before, esp. fitting since it is so common (often for masculine -aḥ ).

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u/stlatos — 5 hours ago
▲ 2 r/language+1 crossposts

Kvari Language

Kvari Language (Draft)

Sean Whalen

stlatos@yahoo.com

April 10, 2026

Jouanne, Thomas (2014) A Preliminary Analysis of the Phonological System of the Western Pahāṛī Language of Kvār

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/30815038.pdf

When reading this, I found many interesting words that might have a bearing on other IE :

A. Kva. iluṛɔ ‘mud’, G. īlū́s \ eilū́s f. 'mud, slime, silt; dregs', eilú 'very dark, black', *ilo- > Slavic *jьlъ 'silt, clay', R. jeléc 'whitefish living in mud', Latvian īls 'pitch dark'

PIE u-stems show oddities, like Armenian *-ur > -r. Kva. iluṛɔ might support *Hilur-s \ *iHlur-s, with *-urs > G. -ū́s. Based on others with neuter -ū in Latin, maybe even *-urH1- > *-ur- \ *-uH-.

B. Kva. ɔgāśɔ ‘bright'

From Turner :

>

1008 ākāśá m. 'sky' ŚBr. [√kāś]

Pa. ākāsa- m., Pk. ākāsa-, āgā, āā° m.n., Si. ahasa, āsa; — Bshk. ā́ga 'cloud, rain', Tor. aghā, Phal. aghá: general retention of -k- as g in Dardic is obscure. *ākāśiya-.

Addenda: ākāśá-: Bur. aiyΛš, ayΛš 'sky' ← OSh. *āyāš or *āyāž (replaced by Sh. agái f. ← ākāśa-).

14262 ākāśá-: Dardic words, like Gaw. augā́š 'sky' (X avakāśa- ?), prob. early ← Sk. NOGaw 27.

>

Unstressed *a: > *a before *a > ɔ? S. kāś- 'to shine brightly; be visible, appear' forming *ā-kāśá- > ɔgāśɔ ‘bright' helps show that ‘bright' is the older meaning (clear from the root's meaning), later -> noun 'sky'. For "general retention of -k- as g in Dardic is obscure", it is possible that the prefix *oH3 > ā- also remained *oxW-k- long enough to preverse *k. This might be seen in augā́š if *H3 > *w was optional ( https://www.academia.edu/128170887 ).

C. Kva. ɔỊkɔ ‘light’

>
624 arká¹ m. 'flash, ray, sun' RV. [√arc] Pa. Pk. akka- m. 'sun', Mth. āk; Si. aka 'lightning', inscr. vid-äki 'lightning flash'.

>

All -Ị- might show a retention of retroflex *-ṛ- (since S. -r- caused following *s to become retroflex). The same in :

D. Kva. ūỊṭī 'vomit'

>
2368 *ullaṭati 'turns over'. 2. *ullaṭyatē 'is upset'. 3. *ullāṭayati 'causes to turn over'. [√*laṭ]

*ullaṭati > 1. S. uliṛaṇu 'to be loose or shaky'; H. ulaṛnā, ular° 'to topple over, lie down'.2. Pk. ullaṭṭa- 'overturned, empty'; K. wulᵃṭun 'to be reversed'; S. uṭilaṇu 'to fall back to a former place'; L. ulṭā adv. 'on the contrary'; P. ulṭaṇā 'to be upset'...

*ullaṭyatē > 2. S.kcch. ūlṭī keṇī 'to vomit', auṭṭalṇū 'to become upside down', WPah.kṭg. ulṭṇõ, ulṭɔ 'left, reverse', ulṭauṇõ 'to turn upside down, or inside out'; B. ulṭo 'reversed'; — read B. ulṭā̆na 'to turn over'.

>

Same change. Maybe also :

E. Kva. ɔgỊɔ ‘type of buckwheat'

>

2516 ērakā f. 'a kind of grass with emollient and diluent qualities' MBh., °kī- f. 'a species of plant'.

Pa. ēraka- n. 'Typha-grass', ēragu- 'a kind of grass for making coverlets'; S. eru 'a partic. kind of plant'?

>

If *ēraka- > *raka- > *akra > ɔgỊɔ.

F. Kva. pɔśu ‘cattle'

>

7984 paśú m., páśu- n. 'domestic or sacrificial animal' RV. m. 'goat' lex.

Pa. pasu-, °uka- m. 'cattle'; Aś.shah. man. paśu-, gir. kāl. dh. jau. pasu- 'beast', NiDoc. paśu; Pk. pasu- m. 'animal, horned quadruped, goat, sheep', WPah.poet. pɔśu m. 'cattle, head of cattle, animal'...

>

G. Kva. kizrāṇi ‘fetid'

>

3201 kīryatē 'is scattered' MBh. [√kr̥̄¹]

Sh. (Lor.) kriǰoiki 'to rot, go bad' (pp. krīdo anal. formation after MIA. type bajjhaï: baddha-). — See *kujjati.

Addenda: kīryatē: WPah.kṭg. kij̈ṇõ 'to rot (of fruit or vegetables)', J. kījṇu.

>

H. Kva. patlɔ ‘thin’

>

7736 pattralá 'leafy' lex. 2. '*leaf-like, thin' (n. 'thin sour milk' lex.). [Cf. pattalī-karōti 'beats into thin leaves' Bhpr., pātraṭa- 'thin' lex. and semant. pattrin-. — páttra-]

>

I think *a > ɔ, but *aC1C1 > aC1. Other combinations of *C1C2 might also have the same effect.

I. Kva. peśāph 'urine'

>

8889 prasrāva m. 'urine'

>

Since ph- is often pronounced phf- (similar to Burusho), -v > *-f > -ph(f). The -f in similar Khowar (*H1newn > *nyava > nyof '9').

J. Kva. gɔnnɔ ‘reed’

>
3998 gaṇḍa² m. 'joint of plant' lex., gaṇḍi- m. 'trunk of tree from root to branches' lex. 2. *gēṇḍa-. 3. *gēḍḍa-². 4. *gēḍa-¹. [Cf. kā́ṇḍa-: prob. ← Drav. DED 1619] 1. Pa. gaṇḍa- m. 'stalk', °ḍī- f. 'sugarcane joint, shaft or stalk used as a bar', Pk. gaṁḍa- m., °ḍiyā- f.; Kt. gäṇa 'stem'; Paš.lauṛ. gaṇḍī́ 'stem, stump of a tree, large roof beam'...

>

This provides a link in meaning to kā́ṇḍa (possibly *kHondo- vs. *koHndo-, if *H > *R caused retro. (see Part N) & voicing (like *gR- \ *kH2apro- 'male goat')) in :

>
3023 kā́ṇḍa (kāṇḍá- TS.) m.n. 'single joint of a plant' AV., 'arrow' MBh., 'cluster, heap' (in tr̥ṇa-kāṇḍa- Pāṇ. Kāś.). [Poss. connexion with gaṇḍa-² makes prob. non-Aryan origin (not with P. Tedesco Language 22, 190 < kr̥ntáti). Prob. ← Drav., cf. Tam. kaṇ 'joint of bamboo or sugarcane' EWA i 197]

Pa. kaṇḍa- m.n. 'joint of stalk, stalk, arrow, lump'; Pk. kaṁḍa-, °aya- m.n. 'knot of bough, bough, stick'; Ash. kaṇ 'arrow', Kt. kåṇ, Wg. kāṇ, kŕä̃, Pr. kə̃, Dm. kā̆n; Paš.lauṛ. kāṇḍ, kāṇ, ar. kōṇ, kuṛ. kō̃, dar. kā̃ṛ 'arrow', kā̃ṛī 'torch'; Shum. kō̃ṛ, kō̃ 'arrow', Gaw. kāṇḍ, kāṇ; Kho. kan 'tree, large bush'; Bshk. kāˋ'n 'arrow', Tor. kan m., Sv. kā̃ṛa, Phal. kōṇ, Sh. gil. kōn f. (→ Ḍ. kōn, pl. kāna f.), pales. kōṇ; K. kā̃ḍ m. 'stalk of a reed, straw' (kān m. 'arrow' ← Sh.?); S. kānu m. 'arrow', °no m. 'reed', °nī f. 'topmost joint of the reed Sara, reed pen, stalk, straw, porcupine's quill'; L. kānā̃ m. 'stalk of the reed Sara', °nī˜ f. 'pen, small spear'; P. kānnā m. 'the reed Saccharum munja, reed in a weaver's warp'...

Addenda: kā́ṇḍa- [< IE. *kondo-, Gk. κονδύλοs 'knuckle', κόνδοs 'ankle' T. Burrow BSOAS xxxviii 55]

&gt;

A very similar sound change might exist in PIE *kH2and- 'shine' > IIr. *kRaṇḍ- 'to appear, seem, please, glad(den)' (with the semantics as in other IE roots for 'shine') :

&gt;
2684 káṇḍati² 'is glad' Dhātup. [Cf. kaḍati 'is intoxicated' Dhātup.: ← Drav. T. Burrow BSOAS xii 369: √kaṇḍ²] Paš. kaṇḍ- 'to appear, seem, please (?)' IIFL iii 3, 94.

&gt;

K. *ḍaṇṭhila > Kva. ḍεṇṭhεỊ 'stalk'

&gt;

5527 *ḍaṇṭha 'stem'. *daṇṭha >10. Or. dāṇṭhi 'hard stalk of a creeper, stalk-like bean'.

&gt;

With i-umlaut.

L. *peṛhni-ɔ ? > Kva. phenɔṛɔ 'heel'

&gt;

8124 pā́rṣṇi f. (m. lex.) 'heel' RV.

Pa. paṇhi- f.m., °ikā- f., Kt. pašyū̃, Pr. wiše, wiṣə, ə̄ṣə̃, Kal.rumb. paṣnī́, urt. pā̆ẓnī́, P. pāsṇā m., WPah. jaun. phāynā, G. pānī f. — The vowel of Tor. pīn 'heel' (AO xviii 307), WPah. (Joshi) phinī 'ankle' is difficult: both rather < or infl. by píṇḍa- ?

Addenda: pā́rṣṇi- [< IE. *porsni- (cf. Hit. paršina) ~ *persnā- T. Burrow BSOAS xxxviii 63] S.kcch. penī f. 'heel', WPah.kṭg. phέni f., kc. phεno m., jaun. phāynā.

&gt;

If also i-umlaut, *a:-i > *e:-i > e-0. The *-CCC- would have to have been retained until recently.

M. Kva. ḍaṅk 'sting'

&gt;
5517 *ḍakk² 'bite'. 2. *ḍaṅk-. 3. *ḍaṅkh-. 4. *daṅk-. [Connexion with √daṁś is doubtful]

*ḍakk- > 1. Pk. ḍakka-, dakka- 'bitten' (H. Smith JA 1950, 194 replacement of daṭṭha-), ḍakkijjaï 'is bitten'; A. ḍākiba 'to bite, sting'; H. ḍakorī f. 'hornet'.

*ḍaṅk- > 2. Pk. ḍaṁka- m. 'bite, sting'; S. ḍ̠aṅgaṇu 'to bite, sting', ḍ̠aṅgu m. 'bite, sting'; L. ḍaṅg m. 'bite', (Ju.) ḍ̠ãgaṇ 'to bite', P. ḍaṅgṇā, ḍaṅg m.; Or. ḍaṅka 'fangs of a snake, insect bite'; Mth. ḍaṅk 'bite of insect or reptile'; H. ḍā̃k m. 'insect sting'; G. ḍā̃k m. 'large green wasp'.3. G. ḍā̃kh m. 'a kind of wasp'; M. ḍā̃khṇẽ 'to bite', ḍā̃kh 'bite, sting'.4. N. daṅinu 'to be cheated' (semant. cf. ḍā̃snu < dáṁśati)...

Addenda: *ḍakk-². 2. *ḍaṅk-: S.kcch. ḍaṅgh m. 'a sting'; WPah.poet. ḍaṅge f. 'a sting, pang'; A. ḍā̃kiba (phonet. d-) 'to bite' AFD 207.

&gt;

For "Connexion with √daṁś is doubtful", I ask you to consider ev. of K(^) in https://www.academia.edu/127351053 . If related, the d- vs. ḍ- would be the same :

&gt;
6110 daṁśa m. 'stinging insect' ChUp. [√daṁś]

Pa. Pk. ḍaṁsa- m. 'biting insect', Pk. daṁsa- m. 'id., bite of snake or insect'; Ku. ḍā̃s 'gadfly, mosquito, hornet'; N. ḍā̃s 'horse or buffalo fly'; A. ḍā̃h 'gadfly', B. ḍā̃s, Or. ḍā̃sa, ḍāũsa, Mth. dā̃s, ḍā̃s; Bhoj. ḍās 'mosquito', Aw.lakh. ḍās 'biting insect'; H. ḍā̃s m. 'large mosquito, a bite'; G. ḍā̃s m. 'gadfly'; M. ḍā̃s, ḍā̃ċ (scarcely to be connected with Kaf. forms below) m. 'gadfly, a bite, the part bitten', Ko. ḍhā̃s m. 'a bite'; — Kho. (Lor.) ḍonzik, ḍonsk 'gadfly', Kal.rumb. daċ, urt. dhãċ and perh. Sh. (Lor.) diċo are ← Kaf.

&gt;

N. Kva. phɔnnɔ ‘shoulder’

&gt;

9042 phaṇa¹ m. 'expanded hood of snake (esp. of cobra)' MBh. 2. *phēṇa-². [Cf. phaṭa-, *phēṭṭa-² and *phaṇati². — For mng. 'shoulder-blade' &c. cf. association of shape in phaṇāphalaka- Bhartr̥. ~ aṁsaphalaká- ŚBr. and cf. phēna- n. 'cuttlefish bone' Car.]

phaṇa- > 1. Pa. phaṇa- m. 'expanded hood of snake', Pk. phaṇa- m., °ṇā- f.; Wg. paṇ-šī 'big snake' (+šai 'head'? NTS xvii 287); K. phan m. 'expanded hood of snake', S. phaṇi f., L.awāṇ. phaṇ, P. phaṇ, °ṇu f., ludh. phan m., WPah. (Joshi) faṇ m., Ku. phaṇ, °ṇi, N. phani, A. phanā, B. phan, °nā, Or. phaṇā̆, Mth. phanā, Bhoj. phan, H. phan, °nā m., G. phεṇ (< *phaṇⁱ), phaṇī f., M. phaṇ m., °ṇī f., Si. paṇa, peṇa. — S. phaṇi f. 'shoulderblade'; H. phanī f. 'wedge'; G. phaṇɔ m. 'fore part of foot'. (Add.) S.kcch. phaṇ f. 'snake's hood, front part of foot', phaṇī f. 'weaver's toothed instrument for pressing and closing the woof'; WPah.kṭg. phɔ́ṇ m. 'cobra's hood'; Garh. phaṇ 'snake's hood'.

*phēṇa- > 2. A. phenā 'expanded hood of snake', Or. pheṇā̆.

&gt;

The shift of *pH2aH1na- > *phanda ? > phɔnnɔ ( https://www.academia.edu/165595811 , also see there for ev. of *Hn > *Rn causing retro.) might be another ex. of *Hn > nd in certain conditions. Look at previous oddities :

&gt;

13474 sundara 'beautiful' MBh. [MIA. < sūnára- 'excellent' RV.? — Phonet. cf. *vāndara- < vānara-]

Pa. sundara- 'beautiful', Pk. suṁdara-; Gy. as. sunra 'pretty'; Paš.ar. sudurā́ 'beautiful', Ku. sunar, B. sũdar, Mth. sunar, Bhoj. sūnar; H. sunariyā f. 'pretty woman'; Si. son̆duru 'pleasant', sb. 'woman'.

&gt;
11515 vānara m. 'monkey' Mn. [Der. vanar- in cmpd. 'forest' RV. — vána-¹]

Pa. vānara- m. 'monkey', Pk. vāṇara- m., Sh.gur. vandur m. (← L. *vāndur), K. wā̃dur, wānur m., S. vānaru m., P.ludh. bāndar (→ L.awān. bā̃drī f.), WPah.bhal. bānar n., bhiḍ. bā̃dar n., Ku. bānar, N. bā̃dar, bā̃dhar, bānar, A. bāndar, B. bā̃dar, Or. bāndara, Bi. Mth. bānar, OAw. bānara, lakh. bā̃dar, H. bā̃dar, bā̃drā m., °rī f., Marw. bā̃dro m., G. vā̃dar, vā̃drɔ m., °rī f., °rũ n., M. vā̃dar m.n., Ko. vāṁdar, Si. van̆durā, f. vän̆durī, °diri; — Gy. as. (Baluči) banur ← Ind.

Addenda: vā́nara-: WPah.kṭg. bandər m. 'monkey' (← H.?), poet. bandro 'brown', J. bāndar m. 'monkey', poet. bandri f. 'she-monkey', Garh. bā̃dar m.

&gt;

If *H1su-H2nero- > sūnára- & *H1su-Rnero- > sundara-, then loss of *H caused d (since the V is long vs. short). It could be that when *H2 > *R it could dissimilate near *R or *r. Maybe *H1suRnero- > *H1sunnero- > *H1sundero-. In this scheme, Kva. phɔnnɔ would be older (I have found no certain cases of old *nd > nn).

If Sanskrit vānara- < *weno-H2nero- 'man of the woods, wild man', like Pashto wəna-nar 'woodsman', then it could be the same, then *n-n > 0-n. Maybe *weno-H2nero- > *vanaRnara- > *vanan(d)ara- > *vaan(d)ara- > *vān(d)ara-.

Also, based on https://www.academia.edu/118834217 I think *morto-H2ner- ‘mortal man’ > *martaHnar- > *martaRnar- > *martandar- > *martarnda- > Mārtāṇḍá- 'mortal'.

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u/stlatos — 5 hours ago
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Indo-European, Yukaghir, Uralic; Part 13

Indo-European, Yukaghir, Uralic; Part 13

cJ. PIE *luk^su-s 'lynx' > Gmc *luxsu-z > OHG luhs, *luk^sw-aH2- > PU *luksw'a 'fox, pine marten'

-

PU *luksw'a > Smd. *lukcå > Nga. locka, *lukw'as ? > Skp. *lokka

PU *luksja > *lujsak > Mansi loisa 'pine marten', *lujaks > Mari luj, Nga. lui

-

Here, met. of *k'sw > *ksw', opt. *w' > *w \ *j, Smd. *ksw > *kc (as below, cL). The other IE words for both 'lynx' & 'fox' support the range here.

-

cK. Yr. *noqsə, FU *ńuk(e)śe 'sable', Smd *nokå 'fox, lynx', Evenki ńekē \ nekē 'sable'

&gt;

Nikolaeva 1515. *noqsə

К noqšə sable; SD noqšo, ngoqoco + wolverine;; TD noxco-; SU noxča; RS nokša; M nókšca; В noghtsha; MU nóktscha; MK nóchtscha

К noqšə-jugul rush, reed [lit. sable tree]; KD noxce-yugul

? SD nogšoc'o Russian

FU *ńukśe / *ńukV-ŠV 'sable' (UEW 326-327) // Paasonen 1907: 21; Lewy 1928: 287; JU 84; FUV 102, UJN 126; Tailleur 1963: 111; UEW 326; Nikolaeva 1988: 237; Rédei 1999: 41

&gt;

-

The words all seem related (with meaning as in cJ), but there are problems with apparently irregular correspondences. If Evenki ńekē \ nekē 'sable' is a loan from a relative of Smd *nokå 'fox, lynx', then it would establish the shared meaning & *ń- vs. *n-. Others :
-

Smd *nokå 'fox, lynx', *lokɜ > Selkup N loqa

-

PU *ńuk(e)śe 'sable, marten' > F. *nokisi > nois, nokiin g., Khanty *ńŏɣǝs, Hn. nyusz-t 'pine marten'

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PU *ńek(u)śe > Hn. nyes-t 'beech marten' (u-e \ e-u met. ?)

-

The main problem is *-s- vs. *-0-. This is exactly what is seen in PIE *luk^su-s 'lynx' vs. *luk^no:n \ *luk^n- > *lunk^-. It could be that something like *luk^sno:n > *luks'no:n \ *nuks'no:l > *l- \ *nuks'(n)o:j > *l- \ *nuks'o:j \ *nukn'o:j \ etc. In some, met. of *n-n' > *n'-n, dsm. of n's, etc. It's hard to know the exact details with this unique environment. An ending like *-o:j might have several outcomes in each branch. Variation of *o \ *u as in previous (PIE *kork- > PU *kurk- \ *kërk- 'crane', etc.).

-

cL. In https://uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?id_eintrag=187 it claims that FU *jokse- 'run; be in heat or rut, couple (tr)' > Hn. ív-, iv-, ví-, vív-, vij-, juv-nak. This & similar theories simply can't work. Why would *ks have so many outcomes? Even if *jokse > *juj were true, & some dsm. of j-j > j-v or v-j, it can't work. F. juokse- also would require at least *joCkse-, unless you adhere to an idea that Finnic long V's are not caused by sequences like this.

-

The meaning 'rut' can also allow *jokswe- 'rut, serve as a stud' -> 'male reindeer' as the source of (with fem. *-a & fronted *-ä) Samoyed *jakcä, (Selkup) *jëkcä 'female reindeer' (*o > Smd *a; with V's as PIE *kork- > PU *kurk- \ *kërk- 'crane'; *ksw > *kc as cJ, above). Together, these might allow *jokswe- > Hn. *jujw- \ *jijw- > ív-, iv-, ví-, vív-, vij-, juv-nak (with some met. of *j-w > *w-j, opt. u > i between j's).

-

Again, I can't be sure of all sound changes based on this example, but the simplest explanation seems to be :

-

PIE *wotk^u- > H. watku-zi ‘jump/leap (out of) / flee’, Ar. ostem \ ostnum ‘leap/jump/skip / spring at / rush forward’

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*H3otk^u- > *o:k^u- > G. oxús \ ōkús ‘swift’, S. āśú-; OW di-auc ‘lazy’; L. acu-pedius, acci-piter (with H3 \ w alt. )

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*wotk^w-e- > PU *wotskw'e- 'run / rush' (also w-w' > w'-w > j-w; met. tskw \ tksw ?)

-

If so, maybe *jotkswe- > F. juokse-, *joktswe- > Smd *jakcä, older *wotskw'e- > Hn. vív- (if this is the base for the other variants). I also think PU *wotskw'e- > *wotsqje > *woqtsje > Yr. *waqsl'ə \ *waRsl'ə 'quick' is needed (with *q > *R > (r) ) for her :

&gt;

  1. *wasl'ə

T wasl'uo- quick, prompt, lively; TK wasl'uo-; TD uorsl'o-

T was l'e adroit; wasl'er- to make smb adroit; waslijaa adroit person; wasl'ejneŋ in a clever way

&gt;

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u/stlatos — 1 day ago
▲ 2 r/language+1 crossposts

Indo-European Roots Reconsidered 100: 'spoon / shovel / shoulder'

Indo-European Roots Reconsidered 100: 'spoon / shovel / shoulder' (Draft)

Sean Whalen

stlatos@yahoo.com

April 9, 2026

Indo-European words for 'wide. flat, slightly curved (wooden) object' are hard to reconstruct. Brent Vine in https://www.academia.edu/39254120 related *sphān- > Greek σφήν \ sphḗn m. 'wedge' (& derived σφάνιον) & *sp(h)ēn- > Germanic *spǣnuz 'sharp oblong object; piece of wood; chip, shaving; (wooden) spoon'. I think the differing vowels and -ph- can be solved by the same features of the original word. If *spH2eH1n- existed, then *e could have been optionally colored to *a by *H2 or preserved by *H1. There are no standard ex. of the same change, but I said that *stH2eH1-no- \ *stH2aH1-no- ‘what stands out / protrudes > breast' existed in https://www.academia.edu/129156379 .

Proto-Uralic *peńV 'spoon' looks like a loan or cognate. If so, the change of *spH2eH1n- > *spH2enH1 > *spxenx' would explain the palatalized ń. Since *x > PU *x or *k (PIE *H2ag^-e- 'drive' > PU *(k)aja-), then the relation mentioned in https://uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?locale=en_GB&id_eintrag=745 of Yurats ṕeŋkapćʔ 'drumstick of a magic drum' would be sound, & also show *spxenx > *spxenk (with x-x' > x-x; the 2nd part a loan from (or cognate with) Proto-Yeniseian *phas 'tambourine, shaman's drum').

He also mentioned a relation to Sanskrit sphyá- 'flat pointed piece of wood, flat sword-like piece of wood used as a ritual implement (for stirring or delineating sacred spaces); oar; spar', Shu. fiyak ‘wooden shovel / shoulder blade’, Xw. fyk 'rudder' (and many more listed in https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=800 ). These also in the cp. :

*sphiya-pāṭa- > Kv. pârík, A. phyóoṛo ‘shoulder blade’, Pl. phīṓṛ \ phiūṛu 'shoulderblade', phiāṛ-mā̃y 'upper part of back', Kva. phɔriaṭε 'upper back'

Their relation to 'spoon' should also be clear from other words with *Hn \ *nH & the same range, 'shoulder', etc., from Turner :

&gt;

9042 phaṇa¹ m. 'expanded hood of snake (esp. of cobra)' MBh. 2. *phēṇa-². [Cf. phaṭa-, *phēṭṭa-² and *phaṇati². — For mng. 'shoulder-blade' &c. cf. association of shape in phaṇāphalaka- Bhartr̥. ~ aṁsaphalaká- ŚBr. and cf. phēna- n. 'cuttlefish bone' Car.]

phaṇa- > 1. Pa. phaṇa- m. 'expanded hood of snake', Pk. phaṇa- m., °ṇā- f.; Wg. paṇ-šī 'big snake' (+šai 'head'? NTS xvii 287); K. phan m. 'expanded hood of snake', S. phaṇi f., L.awāṇ. phaṇ, P. phaṇ, °ṇu f., ludh. phan m., WPah. (Joshi) faṇ m., Ku. phaṇ, °ṇi, N. phani, A. phanā, B. phan, °nā, Or. phaṇā̆, Mth. phanā, Bhoj. phan, H. phan, °nā m., G. phεṇ (< *phaṇⁱ), phaṇī f., M. phaṇ m., °ṇī f., Si. paṇa, peṇa. — S. phaṇi f. 'shoulderblade'; H. phanī f. 'wedge'; G. phaṇɔ m. 'fore part of foot'. (Add.) S.kcch. phaṇ f. 'snake's hood, front part of foot', phaṇī f. 'weaver's toothed instrument for pressing and closing the woof'; WPah.kṭg. phɔ́ṇ m. 'cobra's hood'; Garh. phaṇ 'snake's hood'.

*phēṇa- > 2. A. phenā 'expanded hood of snake', Or. pheṇā̆.

&gt;

I'd also add Kva. phɔnnɔ ‘shoulder’, in which *nH > *nR > nn (or similar). This phaṇa- vs. *phēṇa- must come from *spH2eH1n- \ *spH2eyn- (with H1 \ y in https://www.academia.edu/128170887 & many follow-ups). The *Hn > *Rṇ > (_)ṇ is caused by (Note 7, https://www.academia.edu/127709618 ) :

&gt;

Since *r could cause T > retro. even at a distance, the same for *H (optionally) could imply *H > *R :

*puH-ne- > *puneH- > S. punā́ti ‘purify / clean’; *puH-nyo- > *pHunyo- > púṇya- ‘pure/holy/good’

*k^oH3no-s > G. kônos ‘(pine-)cone’, S. śāna-s / śāṇa-s ‘whetstone’ (with opt. retroflexion after *H = x)

*waH2n-? > S. vaṇ- ‘sound’, vāṇá-s ‘sound/music’, vā́ṇī- ‘voice’, NP bâng ‘voice, sound, noise, cry’ (if related to *(s)waH2gh-, L. vāgīre ‘cry [of newborns]’, Li. vógrauti ‘babble’, S. vagnú- ‘a cry/call/sound’)

*nmt(o)-H2ango- > S. natāṅga- ‘bending the limbs / stooping/bowed’, Mth. naḍaga ‘aged/infirm’

Mth. naḍagī ‘shin’, *nemt-H2agno- > *navḍān > Kt. nâvḍán ‘shin’, *-ika- > *nüṛänk > Ni. nüṛek

*(s)poH3imo- > Gmc. *faimaz > E. foam, L. spūma

*(s)poH3ino- > Li. spáinė, S. phéna-s \ pheṇa-s \ phaṇá-s

*(s)powino- > *fowino > W. ewyn, OI *owuno > úan ‘froth/foam/scum’

*k^aH2w-ye > G. kaíō ‘burn’, *k^aH2u-mn- > G. kaûma ‘burning heat’, *k^aH2uni-s > TB kauṃ ‘sun / day’, *k^aH2uno- > *k^H2auno- > S. śóṇa- ‘red / crimson’

&gt;

With this, *spH2eH1n- \ *spH2enH1- can account for all forms. It is possible that an affix *-eH1n(o)- was added to a root *spaH2-, or a similar derivation. Either *spH-yo- or *spH2H1o- > *sp(H2)yo- seems possible.

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u/stlatos — 2 days ago
▲ 4 r/language+1 crossposts

Indo-European *-mi- &amp; *-mindh- in words for 'worm'

Indo-European *-mi- is a rare suffix, but it is found in :

PIE *wer- 'turn' -> *wŕ̥mi-s 'worm' > Latin vermis, Germanic *wurmi-z

PIE *kWerp- 'turn' -> *kWŕ̥pmi-s 'worm; larva, grub, maggot; snake', S. kŕ̥mi-

PIE *wel(H)- 'turn, roll' -> *wélmindh-s > G. ἕλμινς \ hélmins f., ἕλμῐνθες \ hélminthes p. 'parasitic worm'

There's no reason why all 3 would share the same rare affix by chance. If *-mindh- is an extension of *-mi-, what would it mean? To keep closest to standard theory, it might look like only, say, *wŕ̥mi-s is old and 2 other words were formed based on it later. However, in https://www.academia.edu/165298111 I said that traditional *kWŕ̥mi-s showed evidence it was really *kWŕ̥pmi-s, with Albanian *-pm- > -mp, etc., and also showed *-w- in Proto-Slavic *čьrmь \ *čьrvь & Uralic *kärpviš \ *kärppiš \ *kärmmiš \ etc. It could be that some branches had *-pm- > *-pw-, but what if *-mw- was old?

Words for 'worm' or other small vermin are often diminutives. Since *-mi- & *-mindh- look very similar to another group for 'small' :

*mi-nu- '(make) small', L. minuō ‘lessen’, minūtus; *mi-nw- -> *minwis- > Gmc. *minni(za)-z > Go. mins av. ‘less’, minniza aj. ‘smaller / less’, ON minnr / miðr, OE min ‘small’

*mi-nu-dh(H)- > G. minúthō ‘lessen / become smaller / decrease’, mínuntha ‘short-lived’

What if *-mi- & *-mindh- were really from *-minu- & *-minudh-? The addition of whole words to form grammatical categories in older stages of PIE might be seen by *(H1)sor- 'woman' forming *kWete-sr-es f.p '4', etc. Loss of -u- in long G. words for *wél-minudh- > *wélmindh-, also in :

G. thalúptō \ thálpō ‘warm up / heat’, thalukrós ‘hot / glowing’

G. korúdūlis \ kordū́lē ‘club / cudgel'

*H3owi-selpo- ‘sheep oil’ > *owiseupo- > G. oísupos \ oispṓtē ‘lanolin’ (lC > uC as in Cretan)

*melo-wokW-s > G. mélops ‘sweet sound / good singer’, *melup- > mélpō ‘celebrate with song & dance’, melpḗtōr ‘singer’

Based on https://www.academia.edu/127864944 , an alternation of m / n near w / u could allow *kWŕ̥pminu- \ *kWŕ̥pminw- > *kWŕ̥pmimw- > *kWŕ̥pmwi- (or any similar shortening). I know that *pmw is a very odd sequence, but I can't really find any way to avoid it based on the many outcomes in these words.

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u/stlatos — 2 days ago

Carian names with ida- \ id- \ d-

In https://www.academia.edu/120585078 Zsolt Simon wrote :

&gt;

Neumann (1961: 70) understood this Ida as ‘forest’ and translated the name Ιδαγυγος as ‘Walddommel’ (followed by Zgusta 1962: 663; see already Fick 1909:12 [‘Waldreiher’, followed by Sittig 1954: 18, without ref.]). Although he did not provide any argument or reference for this interpretation, it must have been inspired by the Greek word ἴδη (Doric ἴδα) ‘wood, forest’ (or by Fick’s translation, who clearly referred to the Greek word), which has no etymology and thus is generally held to be an etymologically pre-Greek word (Frisk 1960: 709; Chantraine 1968–1980: 455; Beekes 2010: 577).

Note that the etymological connection to Proto-Germanic *widu- ‘tree, wood’ (Old Norse viðr ‘dto’, etc.) and Proto-Celtic *widu- ‘wood’ (Old Irish fid ’tree, wood’, etc.) via *widwā in Orel 2003: 462 with refs. is not possible phonologically, since the Germanic and Celtic forms imply Proto-Indo-European *-dh-, which leads to Greek -θ-.

&gt;

I do not know if the Mt. Ida on Crete & Mt. Ida near Troy are related, but I have no reason to think it's impossible. Since previous claims that Greeks had nothing to do with Troy, that it was all myth, were proven wrong (the name of Alexander in Hittite records, etc.) & Crete was said to have had ancient colonies in Anatolia long before any of this was proven to the satisfaction of modern scholars (Miletus in Crete, Miletus in Anatolia), I see no reason against their connection. The timing of this would require Greeks in Crete in Minoan times. However, any details about origin & their connection with Carian names with ida- \ id- \ d- have no more ev. than Zsolt provided.

I do think 'wooded mountain' seems the best idea with current knowledge. I do not think his last claim that *dh > d would not happen is supported, since some roots like G. τένδω \ téndō 'to gnaw', τένθης \ ténthēs 'glutton, gourmand' show both. Here, a proposal has been made that *ndh > nd \ nth (likely along with *mbh & *ngh). Since this does not appear regular, how can *dhw > th \ d be certainly false? Of course, even a loan from a dia. like Macedonian with all *dh > d (apparently) is possible. For th \ d, likely also Cretan óthrus ‘mountain’, Óthrus ‘a mountain in Thessaly’, *odrus / *odurs / *oduros > LB o-du-ro, gen. u-du-ru-wo ‘Zakros (in Cr.)’.

I also think *dhw > th \ d would not even be enough, since some say that *dhw > th, others > s, & I think it looks like some > sth, others > ph. Are there conditions or dia. restrictions? It would be hard to know, but harder if evidence is simply dismissed as "not possible phonologically" for a disputed sound change a priori. For other likely ex., see ( https://www.academia.edu/127327803 ) :

&gt;

*dhwalaK?-iH2 > *dhwalakxya > G. thálassa, Dor. sálassa, Epir. dáxa ‘sea’, ?Mac. dalágkha-
This is probably from ‘tossing (sea)’ :
*dhwal- > G. sálos ‘shaking motion (of earth or sea) / restlessness’, saleúō ‘toss / shake (trans)’, Arm. dołam ‘tremble’, Alb. dal ‘exit / leave / wander aimlessly’
*dhwal- > *sthwal- > *sawl- > G. saûlos ‘straddling/waddling / *shaking > loose/wanton [of the gait of courtesans] / prancing [of horses]’
*dhwl-dhwl- > *dhwn-dhwl- > G. pamphalúzō, tanthalúzō ‘quiver / shake’, Arm. dołdoǰ ‘quivering’, yołdołdem ‘shake/move / cause to totter/waver’, dandałem ‘be slow / delay / hesitate’, dandał ‘slow’

G. *dhw > *thw > th / sth / s is known from :
2pl. mid. *-dhwe > -sthe
*widh(H1)wo- ‘divided’ > isthmós ‘neck (of land) / narrow passage/channel’
*k^ik- ‘attach/cling’ > Skt. śic- ‘sling, net’, Li. šikšnà ‘strap, belt, leather’ (Whalen 2025b)
*k^ikyo- > Skt. śikíya- ‘rope-sling for carrying things’, G. kístharos \ kíssaros ‘ivy / rock-rose’, kissós \ kittós ‘ivy’, kísthos \ kisthós ‘rock-rose’

Some words also clearly show *dhy > *sthy (*-dhyaH2i > G. -sthai, Skt. -dhyai, TA, TB -tsi), so there is no reason to doubt that some of the same could happen for *dhw-. 

&gt;

and other discussion of *dhw in https://www.academia.edu/community/activity/aB4JNl

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u/stlatos — 2 days ago
▲ 3 r/language+1 crossposts

Italian and Indo-European dialects with retentions, ts-

Indo-European etymology often depends on comparing languages & dialects, including loans into unrelated languages (if any exist). However, even this simple principle is not always followed. Recent dialects often contain important words that have not been affected by sound changes in older languages (or affected in different ways). Greek had no evidence of ts- in ancient times, but modern dia. do. Even modern Italian should not be ignored in its importance to IE theory, as it contains some forms more conservative than in literary Latin.

-

A. A problem equating IE words for 'wood, forest' with L. Sylvānus, G. S(e)ilēnós is the variation in onset (C)C- :

-
*(t)silw- > L. silva, *(t)swil- \ *kswil- G. hū́lē ‘woods/timber/material’, xúlon ‘wood’

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*tsilwāno- > L. Sylvānus, G. S(e)ilēnós, síllos ‘satire’, silēpordéō ‘behave with vulgar arrogance’, Pordosilḗnē ‘an island’; NG tsilēpourdô ‘spring/leap/fart’ (this with perd- ‘fart’, *pordeye- ‘fart on/at someone’, in reference to satyr’s behavior in plays, extended to their wild capering about)

-
I think these variants help show their common origin. The same shift is seen in older G. *ts / ks, both *ts > ks, *ks > *ts > s ( https://www.academia.edu/128090924 ).

-
PIE *ks- became L. s-, but ev. of *ts- also exists. For *ksw(e)izd(h)- ‘whistle’ > Skt. kṣviḍ-, G. síz[d]ō, see also L. sībilāre, with variants like *ks- \ *tswisfil-. This is based on Italian su(f)folare \ zufolare 'to whistle', etc.

-

Others, like Spanish chiflar, could be from *ks- based on outcomes of *-ks- > -sh-. That a dialect, no ev. for Osco-Umbrian, also retained *ks- \ *ts- as ts- to the present in Italy & Greece is suggestive that rural populations retained IE *ts, whatever its source, much longer than literary languages.

-

B. Italy & Greece are entwined in another way. For PIE *swelH2- > OE swelan ‘burn’, *swelH2as- > G. sélas ‘light / bright light (of fire or heavens)’, etc., why would *s- > G. s-? Sometimes this happened, often in *sm- > G. (s)m-, but I think that Italan zolfo \ solfo 'sulfur' show that *swelH2- > *H2swel- > *xs- > *ks- > *ts- (with H-met. after *H2 > *H2a, https://www.academia.edu/127283240 ). This allows *ts- > G. s-, Italian z- \ s-. For more details from https://www.academia.edu/129286492 :

&gt;

53.  In apparent *swelH2- > OE swelan ‘burn’, *swelH2as- > G. sélas ‘light / bright light (of fire or heavens)’, etc., I see the source of derived *swelH2-p- :

*swelH2p- ‘shine / burn’ > PT *späläp- > T. sälp- ‘be set alight / burn / be on fire / blaze’

with opt. *w > p, *p-p dsm. (even if not, *sw-p > s-p would match In. *śvitira- > S. śvitrá- ‘white’, in compounds śviti- but śiti- near P).  Other cognates :

*swelpH2lo(s)- > L. sulp(h)ur, Gmc *swilbHla-z > Bav. Schwelfel, [l-l > 0-l] Go. swibls, OE swefl, *sweHbla- > *swe:bla- > *swæ:bla- > Du. zwavel ‘sulfur’

in which *pH > p(h), but in Gmc. it is also seen when H-met. created *VH > a long V (Whalen 2025a).  It is important to know that *H survived in PGmc that long, even when between C’s.  There is another close cognate, not usually recognized due to sound change (Whalen 2025b) :
&gt;
In the same way, in Et. Sethlans ‘blacksmith/craftsman god’, the fact that Vulcanus was borrowed & many L. words in -anus appear as -ans in Et. makes a loan here likely.  Vulcanus came from *wlk- (likely from *luk- ‘light’ with metathesis of w), and G. Hḗphaistos is derived from *phais-to- (*gWhais- > Lt. gaišs ‘bright / clear’, Li. gaĩsas ‘glow / gleam (of fire)’, gaĩsras ‘glow in the sky / (glow from a) fire / conflagration’, G. phaiós ‘grey / *bright > *clear > harsh [of sound]’) so another root of the same meaning is needed here.  This would suggest *Selphanus ‘blacksmith god’ from *swelp- ‘shine / burn’, *swelplo(s)- > Go. swibls, L. sulp(h)ur.  With this in mind, notice that some f / th in Sardinia came from *p(h) :

G. Phórkos ‘sea god, father of Medusa’ >> Forco / Thorco ‘father of the legendary medieval Sardinian Medusa’
*prtu- > L. portus ‘port/harbor/haven’, *fǝrθ- > *farr- > Thárras (port city)
*prtu- > E. ford, *fǝrθ- > *forr- > Thorra (at ford on the Torra River)
*(s)piHk- > ON spíkr ‘nail’, G. pikrós ‘pointed/sharp’; *spiHkalyo- > *sfi:kalyos > *fi:skalyos > Thìscali (mtn.)

Since ancient Sardinia was a source of copper, with many bronze figures of warriors known to have been made & the metal to have been exported, its proximity to Etruscan territory might show a loan of *Selphanus or *Selplanus from there.  Sardinians also figure into some accounts of the origin of Talos, the man of bronze, moving to Crete.  I also think some of the Sardinians moved to Crete ( https://www.academia.edu/126907768 ).  If an inscr. in Sardinia contained sardof, saadof, dedikar, ōpeirari, iroukles, animeste, est, sano, sanomos, dea, ēdēs, seu, marf, etc., there would be no reason to see it as anything but Italic, so the same on Crete (with the travels of the Sea Peoples in mind) should not be treated differently.  Other ev. might come in loans, seen in modern Sardinian :
&gt;

&gt;

-

C. A group of IE cognates seem like :

-

*psadhmH2o- > *psaphmo- > G. psámmos ‘sand’ (fem. o-stem)

*psamH2dho- > G. psámathos ‘sand’ (fem. o-stem)

*samH2dho- > G. ámathos ‘sand’ (fem. o-stem), Gmc. *samda- > E. sand

*sabhH2dho- > L. sabulum, Ar. awaz

-

This doesn't seem to explain why these have ps- vs. s-. However, if some *ps- > (t)s-, we'd need to include *tsaburCa: > L. saburra 'grit, sand' > Italian zavorra 'ballast; junk' ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zavorra & https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/saburra ). Again, the Italian z- would support both the common origin & optional changes to Cs-.

-

I think that *H was often *R ( https://www.academia.edu/115369292 ) and caused asm. or dsm. of *r or *l ( https://www.academia.edu/129161176 ). In this case, *sabhH2dho- > L. sabulum would really be *psabhRədho- > *psabRəlo- > L. sabulum, *psabRəlo- > *psabəRlo- > *psabəRro- -> *tsaburra: > L. saburra, Italian zavorra. Though most *ks- > *ks- \ *ts-, here it could be dsm. of *ps-P > *(t)s-P, so the relevancy to other words might be low.

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D. The claim in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/favazzo of "Etymology Unknown" seems unneeded. I say that :

-

G. pháps, phab- 'wild pigeon', *pháts-ya > phássa \ phátta 'wood pigeon'

*phabáts-ya >> Italian favazzo 'wood pigeon', also favaccio (contm. < colombaccio ?)

-

A loan might preserve *tsy here. It would seem odd for a loan to have such an old feature, but other G. dia. as the source of Italic loans, all with odd features, seems common enough. A partial list in https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalLinguistics/comments/1n6gf1s/greek_pallak%E1%B8%97_concubine_p%C3%A1ll%C4%93x_young_girl/

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Is my proposed *phabáts-ya a combination of 2 related words? I think that the very similar alternation in G. φώψ \ phṓps 'light', related to διαφάσσειν 'διαφαίνειν' points to an origin in PIE *bhoH2k^-s 'flame, light'. From https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalLinguistics/comments/1pzrr7v/pie_bhoh2ks_flame/ :

&gt;

The relation of Latin fax f. 'torch' & focus m. 'hearth, fireplace, firepan' to each other or any IE roots is disputed. Based on Hrach Martirosyan in https://www.academia.edu/46614724 I think it best to connect Armenian bocʻ 'flame', bosor ‘(blood-)red / crimson’.

Though he mentioned *bhok^-, it seems to me that *bhoH2k^- (related to *bhaH2- 'shine') works better. As for nom. *bh(o)H2k^-s > fax & bocʻ (instead of *bhok^-sk^-), analogy from the nom. would match proposed *-ds > *-ts in Armenian anic 'nit'. Loss of *-H- in clusters like *-HKs might be regular, but many cases seem optional ( https://www.academia.edu/115369292 ). If *bh(o)H2k^-s was separated as *bhH2k^-s > *phak^-s > fax vs. *bhoH2k^-s > *bhok^-s > bocʻ (maybe analogy from *bhoH2k^- vs. *bhH2k^- in the weak cases), then all forms would fit.

&gt;

-

For the *-ks > -ps (maybe also dsm. of *ph-p > ph-b), I've said that Greek had *-Cs > -ps near P in :

&gt;

*pod-s > *poths > *pophs / *pofs > *povs > G. poús, Dor. pṓs

That -ps actually existed here is seen in -pops in compound:

*H2arg^i-pod-s > *-poths > *-pofs > *-povs > G. argípous ‘fleet-footed’, Mac. argípous / aigípops ‘eagle’ < *’swift’

A similar *m-x > *m-f is behind:

*mok^s > L. mox, MW moch ‘soon’, Av. mošu ‘immediately’, *moxs > *mõfs > G. máps ‘rashly/idly’

&gt;

-

E. As you can see, these dia. words can help prove or disprove various theories, yet are rarely if ever used in IE discussions. I think another group, including PIE *H1egWh- ‘drink’, can be helped in the same way. From Adams :

&gt;

AB yok- reflects a PIE *h1ēgw(h)- from *h1egw(h)- ‘drink’ [: Hittite eku- / aku- ‘drink,’ Latin ēbrius ‘having drunk one's fill, drunk,’ and perhaps Greek nēphō ‘be sober’ (< if from *ne- + h1egwh-) (MA:175)]. Cf. Puhvel's discussion (1984:267-8) of Hittite eku- / aku- and (1985) of Latin ēbrius. The equation of the Tocharian and Hittite words goes back to Pedersen (1925:40) but should not include the family of Latin aqua, an equation wrongly repeated by VW (601-2). The lengthened grade of the Tocharian verb may reflect an "acrostatic" present (Oettinger, 1979:87) or a lengthened grade iterative-intensive.

&gt;

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Adams' claims of PIE *e: often don't hold up. Here, the relation of Tocharian *yëkW- ‘drink / be wet / be liquid’ & Proto-Uralic *jëxwe- 'drink', *jëkwe 'river', etc. does not favor *e:. More in https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalLinguistics/comments/1r35dai/tocharian_b_y%C3%ABkw_yok_yo_drink_protouralic_j%C3%ABxwe/ :

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There is much too much similarity for a chance similarity in :

Tocharian B *yëkW- ‘drink / be wet / be liquid’ > yok- ‘drink’, *yox-tu- > TB yot ‘bodily fluid? / broth? / liquid?’, *yox-thmo- > yo-lme ‘large deep pond/pool' & Proto-Uralic *jëxwe- 'drink', *jëkwe 'river', *jokwe-ka 'small river' > *joweka (k-k dsm.) > *juka

Not only are the reconstructed vowels the same, but both show -k- vs. *-x- > 0. That both apply to 'drink' & 'body of water' (like E. "the drink", etc.) seems to show a reasonable period of common contact or common origin.

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I have been told by adherents of standard theory that the only explanation is a loan from Toch. >> PU around 2,500 BC. This is ridiculous for a number of reasons, and there is absolutely no way anyone could assume that Toch. *e: > *ë had occurred so long ago. I find it hard to believe that 'drink' would exist in all Uralic as a loan from Toch., *wete 'water' would exist in all Uralic as a loan from PIE *wodor-, *mekše 'bee' would exist in all Uralic as a loan from IIr. *mekš- BEFORE it became *makš-, etc. Both the timing & loans for basic voc. seem highly suspect.

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Whatever its source, if PU *jëxwe- & Tocharian *yëkW- are related, it is odd that so many other languages around the world have equally as good matches for 'drink' or 'water' (or both). Knowing the source of each in more detail might help.

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In his claim that Latin ēbrius came from *e:, there is no support. In https://www.academia.edu/4955217 Heiner Eichner gave ev. that Latin ēber & ēbrius came from *ex(h)uber and *ēbriyos ( < *-ros & *-riyos, like other compounds with both endings). He said that *ex-habro- 'impaired' was the source of the words, giving other ex. of both *-hab- > -ub- & > -b-. If so, I think that would explain alt. in L. ēbriācus 'drunk', *ēhubriācus > Italian ubriaco. Even *ex-h > ē- & *es- is seen in *ex-b > *ēbriōnia \ *esbriōnia > Italian sbornia 'drunkenness'. There should be no more or less surprise at retention of *ksh sometimes retaining *s as *zdh > *sf \ *zb (Part A., above).

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All ev., even what he did not mention, supports his version over Adams'. However, I think that *ex-hebro- would work, from *H1egWh-ro-. In https://www.academia.edu/165477275 I gave ev. that Italic dia. often retained *H as h. The semantics fit better, & the root is just as capable of undergoing the sound changes needed.

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F. It could be that the same *H is behind Italian gemino 'twin' & the name Gemmino. If related to *y(e)mHo- 'twin', then *mH > Italic *mh > m(m) might work. The degree of likelihood here depends on whether my other ex. of *H > h are accepted.

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G. Latin aqua 'water', Italian acqua are supposedly due to irregular *kw > kkw. If irregular, why is this irregularity better than any of the countless cases of irregularity that are not accepted by most linguists? If there are no standards, beyond which fit any linguist's preferred theories, why would any case of apparent irregularity be a reason to doubt the theory it would support if real?

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This is not just rhetoric, but ties into the source & nature of PIE *H2akWh-, *H2ak(W)-, or whatever you might suppose this word for 'drink', & adding *-waH2- 'water' was. In looking at all possibilities, I favor a compound :

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*H2ap-H1gWh- 'drink water' > *H2apgWh- > *H2apkWh-

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with *H lost in compounds (as it often was), then asm. of new *pK (possibly the only ex. of this exact *pK, possibly undergoing a different change than normal due to loss of *-H- between these sounds). If so, Italic *(h)apkwa: treating *pkw > (k)kw in a similar way to *Cs- > (t)s- would not be odd.

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Also, many languages in America seem to have something like *(x)akwa 'water', but not exactly. For ex., Mary R. Haas in https://www.jstor.org/stable/1263263 wrote that Proto-Gulf *akWin 'water' existed, but that Proto-Muskogean *aku \ *uki pointed to *akwi \ *awki when *akWi > *akpi would be expected. I see no way for *kW to be regular & *akWin 'water' to exist. I have no idea why she would claim she had found total regularity for both 'water' & 'land' yet say that both were irregular. It completely compromises all her claims. It would have to be *a(w)kW(w)in or similar. The match with PIE *H2apkWh-waH2- is evident, since this *kWh is both preceded & followed by labials, just as might be needed for *a(w)kW(w)in. If indeed *(h)apkWwin, the usual *kW > *kp could be prevented by either *p- or *-w. That these 2 words both resemble each other and are very odd within each group's phonotactics seems especially indicative of common origin.

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u/stlatos — 3 days ago

Indo-European dialects with ts-

Indo-European dialects with ts-

A problem equating L. Sylvānus, G. S(e)ilēnós is the variation in onset (C)C- :

*(t)silw- > L. silva, *(t)swil- \ *kswil- G. hū́lē ‘woods/timber/material’, xúlon ‘wood’

*tsilwāno- > L. Sylvānus, G. S(e)ilēnós, síllos ‘satire’, silēpordéō ‘behave with vulgar arrogance’, Pordosilḗnē ‘an island’; NG tsilēpourdô ‘spring/leap/fart’ (this with perd- ‘fart’, *pordeye- ‘fart on/at someone’, in reference to satyr’s behavior in plays, extended to their wild capering about)

I think these variants help show their common origin. The same shift is seen in older G. *ts / ks, both *ts > ks, *ks > *ts > s ( https://www.academia.edu/128090924 ) :

*ksom / *tsom ‘with’ > G. xun- / sun-

G. *órnīth-s > órnīs ‘bird’, gen. órnīthos, Dor. órnīx

G. Ártemis, -id-, LB artemīt- / artimīt-, *Artimik-s / *Artimit-s > Lydian Artimuk / Artimuś

*paks(a)lo- > L. pālus ‘stake’ (-ks- seen in diminutive paxillo- ‘peg’), G. *patsalo- > G. pássalos ‘peg’

*H1ludh-s-to- ‘raised’ > Cr. lúttos ‘high / lofty’, Lúktos \ Lúttos ‘a city in Crete’

*stroz(u)d(h)o- ‘thrush’ > Li. strãzdas, Att. stroûthos ‘sparrow’, *tsouthros > xoûthros

*ksw(e)izd(h)- ‘make noise / hiss / whistle’ > Skt. kṣviḍ- ‘hum / murmur’, *tswizd- > G. síz[d]ō ‘hiss’

*ksw(e)rd- > W. chwarddu ‘laugh’, Sog. sxwarð- ‘shout’, *tswrd- > G. sardázō ‘deride’

*kswlp- > Li. švil̃pti ‘to whistle’, *tslp- > G. sálpigx ‘war-trumpet’

*(t)silw- > L. silva, G. hū́lē ‘woods/timber/material’, xúlon ‘wood’

*ts-p > Eg. zf ‘slaughter / cut up’, zft ‘knife / sword’, Ab. sayf; *tsif- > G. xíphos ‘sword’

G. íxalos ‘castrated goat’, iskhalo-, ísklai ‘goat’s skins’, isthlê \ ixalê \ ixále \ isálē \ izálē \ izánē \ issélē \ isséla \ itthéla ‘goat’s skin (used by actors in satyric dramas)’

For *ksw(e)izd(h)- ‘whistle’ > Skt. kṣviḍ-, G. síz[d]ō, see also L. sībilāre, with variants like *ks- \ *tswisfil-. This is based on :

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zufolare From Vulgar Latin *sūfilāre, from Latin sībilāre, whence also the doublets sibilare and sobillare. Cognate with Corsican zifulà, Venetan sifołar, Romansh tschüvler, tschivlar, Norman sûfflier, Walloon xhufler (Old French sufler).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/siffler Inherited from Old French sifler (later orthographically influenced by souffler), from Vulgar Latin *sīfilāre, probably an Osco-Umbrian influenced variant of Latin sībilāre (compare Spanish chiflar, Friulian sivilâ). Compare also the variant northern Old French dialectal form sufler (whence Norman sûfflier and Walloon xhufler), from a Vulgar Latin variant *sufilāre (compare Italian zufolare), as well as the dialectal subler from a form *subilāre (compare Italian sobillare, Romansh tschüblar, Romanian șuiera); in areas transitional to Franco-Provençal dialects is found the form sibler (compare also Occitan siblar, siular, Catalan xiular).

That a dialect, no ev. for Osco-Umbrian, also retained *ks- \ *ts- as ts- to the present in Italy & Greece is suggestive that rural populations retained IE *ts, whatever its source, much longer than literary languages.

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u/stlatos — 4 days ago