
u/lactobacillus-Master

I don’t think Metyr and the Gloam-Eyed Queen are the same creature, but it’s hard to ignore the signs and not see a clear connection between them
The lord who came after Placidusax and before Marika, and how this may help explain Marika’s ascension to godhood through the Hornsent
***Please, take a look at the images — they are extremely important for understanding the text***
First, we’re dealing with a lord that occupied the vacuum between the reign of Dragonlord Placidusax and Queen Marika the Eternal.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen / Fell God exists and terrorizes the Hornsent (Furnace Visage descriptions), while the Fire God of the Giants also exists at the same time (they’re connected on a level we can only speculate about). The game tells us that the GEQ/Fell God was chosen as an Empyrean by the Fingers — meaning she was next in line for the throne.
The Hornsent perform a ritual to elevate Marika to godhood with the promise that she would take revenge against the GEQ/Fell God and prevent her from taking the place of the Fire God of the Giants (just as Marika has three Empyreans as successors, the Fire God of the Giants also had successors chosen by the Fingers) .
Now comes a fair more bit of headcanon, because the game never clearly explains what happened — this is simply my logical interpretation:
Before becoming a goddess, Marika becomes involved with the giant, Radagon.
Radagon was a giant born smaller than the rest of his race, which caused him to be seen as sullied and terribly grotesque (Milos Greatsword description), leading him to hate his own race (Giant’s Red Braid description).
Marika becomes pregnant by him. He participates in the secret ritual as her first consort; she conceives before the ritual and carries his child during it.
Secret rite ritual:
“A scroll made of white tree bark.
Few can decipher the scroll,
which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow.
"A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel."
I think that, during the ritual, Marika merged both souls — hers and Radagon’s — into a single body, rather than them having always been one being that later split apart. That interpretation (that he didn’t exist before her) doesn’t really make sense to me, especially considering Radagon’s giant lineage and genetic traits.
I also think her ritual was different from Miquella’s, since she was an ordinary Numen ascending to godhood, whereas Miquella was already a Demigod who abandoned St. Trina, who lived within him, and everything seems to indicate that she was a divinity in her own right, one that prevented him from becoming an adult, almost like a curse.
Basically, my interpretation of the ritual is that it required Radagon and Marika to become one body containing two separate souls, not a soul that split itself in two.
Brief comment: It’s implied that Marika made a pact with a white serpent shortly before her ascension to godhood (SOTE cinemática trailer). I wonder if she consciously housed it within Messmer’s body while she was carrying him.
Continuing:
The ritual works. She becomes a goddess and just as Miquella did with St. Trina, Radagon is separated from Marika body, and in some point before or after that, he used the amber Egg to be reborn as a human (The same amber egg that he uses to gift Rennala).
Godfrey became Elden Lord , defeats the giants with Marika defeating the fire god of Giants (ONE-EYED SHIELD description) the last king of Lands Between and takes the throne.
However, she also betrays the Hornsent because of all the suffering inflicted upon the Numen, sealing that region away from the rest of the world and leaving Messmer the Impaler — a son cursed maybe by her acts — behind to destroy them.
The Gloam Eyed Queen steals the Rune of Death and creates the Black Flame to take its place on the throne (before Marika, she had been chosen by the Fingers to succeed the Fire God of the Giants) However, she is defeated by Maliketh, sealing the Rune of Death and Black flame power
Why I think the Fell God is the Gloam-Eyed Queen:
- the symbol on the Furnace Visage strongly resembles the design found on the robes of the Godskin Apostles
- the design on the cloaks of the Dominula dancers: the blue one depicts an era in which the one-eyed god of the Fire Giants — and beneath him, the GEQ/Fell God — ruled, while the golden one shows they being replaced by the Golden Order and the Erdtree”
- The symbol of the eight circles surrounding a larger circle is also present on the Godskin Noble’s robe, with the faces forming the smaller circles around the central circle.
- The Divine Towers, where the runes are kept, have an architecture completely different from everything else, and on their rooftops they bear the symbol of the Fell God of the Giants on every side. There are eight monuments surrounding the circle in the center, and all eight monuments display the same symbol: eight circles surrounding a single one. At the bottom of the Caelid tower, the architecture changes and bears the symbol of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, showing that the two once coexisted in a certain harmony. Perhaps she was the daughter of the Fire God of the Giants, and that may have been the reason she was chosen as an Empyrean, but that makes it clear that she came before Marika became a goddess, which rules out any possibility of Melina originally being the Gloam-Eyed Queen (if she was later possessed by her, that’s another story — one I don’t have the answer to).
Theory about the relationship between Rykard, Ranni, Godskins and the true identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen
Summary:
Top-right image 1: the Godskin Apostles use the symbol of the Fell God. The Fire Monks (who wear the image of the Fire God of the Giants on their chest, despite opposing him) begin using the black flame of the Gloam-Eyed Queen once they switch sides — making a connection between them quite clear. The towers where the runes are located predate Queen Marika, which is evidenced by the symbol of the nine circles. The Godskins even have a base inside the one in Caelid. The Fire God of the Giants has eight circles, while the Fell God has eight horns. The patches on the Godskin Noble’s robe reference the cyclopean Fire God of the Giants (image 1 left and the shield right).
Still, I don’t think they’re the same being: the Fire God of the Giants uses a different flame from the one associated with the Gloam-Eyed Queen. So there’s likely some kind of kinship or intimate connection between them.
In depth:
Before anything else, I’d like to establish a few points.
Ranni has a clear alliance with the Nox of the Eternal Cities, as they both share the same goal (age of stars).
In addition:
- Iji wears one of their mirror helms to conceal himself.
- The dagger Ranni uses to kill the Two Fingers is guarded for her within the Eternal City.
- She orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives.
- The Black Knives are described as scions of the Eternal City, making them allies of Ranni as well.
- About The Gloam-Eyed Queen: an Empyrean chosen by the Two Fingers, existed before Marika attained godhood, just as the Godskin cult existed before the Golden Order centered around Marika. What reinforces my theory is the fact that the Divine Towers guarding the Great Runes appear to date back at least to the era of the Fell God, judging by their architecture and the recurring symbol of the nine circles seen on all of their roofs. (Image 1)
- In the Divine Tower connected to Radahn’s Great Rune, the area where we find the Godslayer’s Greatsword features architecture associated with the Gloam-Eyed Queen, including sculptures that also appear in the Temple of Eiglay. This is, in my view, the first strong indication of a connection between these two entities.
My theory is that there a connection between the Fell God (the Gloam-Eyed Queen) and the Fire God of the Giants:
One represented as a cyclops with a fiery eye containing nine circles — the Fell God, the same entity invoked by the Fire Giant.
The other being chosen by the Two Fingers as an Empyrean, represented by a medusa/sun-like figure with horns: the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
Another indication of this is related to the Fire Monks: when they betray their duty to guard the forbidden Flame of Ruin atop the Mountaintops of the Giants, they become Blackflame Monks, making it clear which side the Gloam-Eyed Queen stands on (Image 1).
Their connection to serpents may represent a rebirth ritual. They would use demigods as vessels to return to their original forms. This idea is supported by the Divine Tower sculptures depicting a reptilian figure ascending upward, as well as the imagery present on the Bronze Shield (image 2).
1 - Order of events
Marika becomes a goddess. I believe Eiglay is somehow connected to this, although I cannot fully explain how. The white mass she reaches into during the story trailer may represent his body, possibly pierced using the Serpent-Hunter spear before Rykard later rediscovered it. Supporting evidence includes the snake skin found in Bonny Village and Marika’s serpent-shaped bracelet.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen — whom I believe to have a a close relationship with the Fell God (who Marika is said to have personally defeated) seeks revenge for her father (or consort) and attempts to reclaim her rightful place as the Empyrean originally chosen by the Fingers before Marika ascended to divinity. She is ultimately defeated by Maliketh, and the Rune of Death is sealed within his blade.
A long time passes.
Rykard rediscovers the ancient cult.
Ranni meets her secret mentor, the Snow Witch, within a forest. Beyond teaching her cold sorceries and introducing her to the beliefs of the Nox, I believe the Snow Witch also taught her about the ritual that would free her from the Two Fingers. I suspect this meeting took place near the Mistwood Ruins, close to where Blaidd waits and near the Siofra River Well.
(This next part is entirely speculative, but I would not be surprised if the Snow Witch were a discarded body of Marika, similar to how Miquella discarded St. Trina. I mainly suspect this because of the unusual blue coloration, something rarely seen among the races of the game, comparable only to the mysterious purple associated with St. Trina).
Ranni asks Rykard for help in carrying out the Night of the Black Knives and gives him the Blasphemous Claw in return.
The Night of the Black Knives occurs.
Marika shatters the Elden Ring.
2.1 — Rykard
Time passes. Rykard loses his mind and is devoured — and controlled — by the serpent.
The Temple of Eiglay falls under the control of the Godskin cult, which creates man serpent using serpent amnion connected to Daedicar (The Godskins set is a clear reference to how the serpent grows stronger).
Tanith assumes command of Volcano Manor. They hunt Tarnished who remain loyal to, or fight on behalf of, the Golden order to offer to Rykard’s new monstrous form the most powerful among the recusants.
2.2 — Ranni
Ranni is declared an enemy of the Greater Will, as the Fingers deem her a traitor.
She, Iji, and Blaidd are all branded traitors.
Ranni goes into hiding in the Three Sisters.
Iji uses the Mirrorhelm from the Eternal City to conceal his presence, while Blaidd hides within the forest.
Ranni is hunted by Fingercreepers of Metyr. They are not there to protect her, but rather attempting to reach Ranni’s Rise. However, they are prevented from doing so by the Carian spirits, the Red Wolf, and Ranni’s Dragon in the upper areas.
There are only three possible candidates capable of replacing Marika: Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia. But among those three, only Ranni is not cursed, and despite that, she still plans to destroy them. This would give the Greater Will (the Fingers acting on their own) reason to support the return of the Gloam-Eyed Queen as Marika’s replacement, even allowing events such as the Dominula Festival to continue. The dancers’ cloaks even depict imagery that could be interpreted as both the original one-eyed Fell God and the Gloam-Eyed Queen replacing Marika’s Erdtree (image 1 on the left).
The Godskin cult becomes hostile toward Ranni because, although they seek to destroy Marika’s Golden Order, they are not opposed to the Greater Will itself. Rather, they seek to replace Marika with the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
3 — In-game Events
After Radahn’s death, we retrieve the Fingerslayer Blade from the Eternal City (Who possibly cut off one of Metyr’s fingers (Ringed Finger weapom) in order to fulfill Ranni’s destiny.
The blade was clearly kept there for her, and can only be obtained with her permission.
Ranni kills the Two Fingers.
A Godskin Apostle teleports to Ranni’s Rise to kill her. The Black Knives arrive to stop it and are killed in the process, while the Godskin is ultimately slain by Blaidd (There are no bodies because they disappear upon death, unlike the Black Knives) Before dying, Blaidd learns from the Black Knives that Ranni went into hiding because she feared he would eventually go mad.
(Whether or not you kill Blaidd is left up to the player. If you do kill him, Iji dies afterward as well. Consumed by regret, he removes his helmet and is then hunted down by the Godskins who are being supported by the Fingers. Regardless, Ranni’s ending remains available even if they survive)
In Farum Azula, the Godskin Duo did not teleport there — they were originally stationed in that location, just as they were in Windmill Village and i don’t think they’re there to steal the Rune of Death again. Just like when they appear as you approach Ranni's Rise, they are there to prevent you from getting closer to your goal: whether it’s repairing the Elden Ring or freeing yourself from the Greater Will. In both cases, they lose.
The first sign that we are dealing with something more than a mere human is the sound of footsteps and the tolling bells at the beginning of the game-a mausoleum which, by having a bell, would be meant to carry the soul of a demigod child of Marika. Perhaps it was this being that carried our body close to the chapel, but there is no plausible explanation for this that doesn't point to us being a demigod. Still, we are described as a nameless Tarnished, which is also true.
Some points:
At the beginning of the game, Torrent chooses us without the lightest hesitation. There are three individuals who show familiarity with Torrent: Melina, Ranni, and Miquella. What they all have in common is that they are children of Marika/Radagon. Therefore, Torrent clearly seems to be a steed of the royal family. And, being a spirit, it can identify who we truly are.
The famous image of "The Night of the Black Knives" has always seemed ambiguous to me. It didn't clearly look like an attack; it could be interpreted as the Black Knives supporting Godwyn during a ritual. He wasn't standing-he was seated-and they didn't seem to be exerting effort to restrain a demigod capable of defeating Fortissax. I believe Melina took part in the ritual. Beyond having a Black Knife moveset, the "Official'sAttire," found just before her chamber, says:"Grubby blue robe worn by magisterial officials to carry out their grim tasks. Surveillance, executions, gruesome rituals... The darkest duties drive the wheels of mankind"
The reason Godwyn would accept going through this comes down to two things: following his mother's plan to destroy the Golden Order, and saving Ranni (his fiancée at the time) from her fate. This explains why Ranni still wears her engagement ring and adds another layer to the ending where the Tarnished becomes her consort. I've always believed the Spirit Calling Bell actually belongs to Ranni. Before the Blaidd episode, there are always three wolves at the entrance to her tower. The fact that she refers to herself in the third person at that moment is because she is hiding her identity (Renna) until she feels safe enough to reveal it.
This dialogue:
"Blaidd, and lji both...
Art willing to give too much to me.
Yet they both understand.
What lieth beyond the dark path...
That I must betray everything, and rid the world of what came before.
Ah, should i add thee to the list?
Another one, kind of heart.
As kind of heart as they.
Ach, this form hath loosened my tongue.
l've let slip too much.
Forget what thou'st heard. Forget"
Perhaps it's her slipping and refering to Godwyn-someone who no longer exists-since, although the soul is his, all of his memories were erased at the moment of his death, and that may be the reason she doesn't reveal what she knows about a past that is no longer yours
"But where does the character we create fit into this?" Godwyn's soul was killed, and even if it could reincarnate, he no longer has a body that isn't a complete monstrosity. But as we know, mausoleums in Elden Ring can both carry souls (Remembrances) and also divide them. So even though Godwyn the Golden’s soul suffered a true death, the latter was used to bring him back to life in another body
Look this description:
“LHUTEL THE HEADLESS
Legendary ashen remains. Use to summon the spirit of Lhutel the Headless.
Spirit of a headless knight who leads the mausoleum soldiers. Wields a lance enrobed in Death and hurls spectral lances at foes.
Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival*, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.”*
There is a very similar process when Miquella transfer Radahn’s soul into Mohg’s body. That's where maybe Melina comes in. All her traits match Ranni's situation, (her body is burned, just like Ranni’s original body was also burned in the ritual) with the only difference being that she has no other body to inhabit. This leads me to believe she underwent the same ritual as Ranni, having her body destroyed but her spirit preserved. The other half of the ritual-whose soul was destroyed but whose body was preserved-is the character we create at the beginning (hero, samurai, astrologer, etc), which serves as a vessel for Godwyn's soul to reincarnate. It’s interesting to think that, when we fight Consort Radahn, it’s a battle between two demigods reborn in a body that is not their own, both fighting for the destruction and replacement of the Golden Order (if you choose Ranni side).
Another interesting point is the path taken by Godwyn's original body. I don't think it grew uncontrollably, but rather followed the path that Godwyn's soul took. His presence stretches from Deeproot Depths to Stormveil Castle, stopping exactly at the Chapel of Anticipation. According to the description of the Marred Leather Shield, the holes in Stormveil's walls with thorn-filled roots were caused by Godwyn's body:
Marred Leather Shield description:
"Leather shield of Stormveil soldiers. Miuch like the castle,it is marred by mottling and thorns.
Some say it is the curse of grafting which causes such affliction, while others talk of its root being something altogether more sinister hidden deep within the castle"
This implies that the thorny growth is Godwyn's corpse spreading through the castle. And indeed, if you visit Godwyn’s body at the base of the castle, you will see that the thorned roots are a continuation of his tendrils. As a Numen, Godwyn’s body merges with surrounding organisms and causes them to mutate, such as the crabs and the local vegetation. You can see on the ceiling of that área that the roots were originally without thorns; they only begin to develop them after emerging from the tendrils of Godwyn’s body And it spreads through the wall lies directly above the corpse, and you can see thorns growing through broken parts and in the castle tower.
Interestingly, these thorns only grow in the direction of the Chapel of Anticipation. If you go to the start of the tower bridge and look at the other side of the castle, it remains in perfect condition without thorns, It's almost as if the roots are trying to reach the Chapel of Anticipation. In fact, the same thorny roots seen in Stormveil's walls are also around the chapel, scattered and pointing toward all its entrances.
This gives a completely new interpretation to the fight against Lichdragon Fortissax. He, maybe, wouldn't be irrationally fighting against Godwyn's death, but rather against his friend's cursed body-trying to slow its spread so that his soul wouldn't be trapped within that decomposed and accursed corpse.
One last thing:
Dragonbolt blessing:
Superior incantation of the capital's ancient dragon cult.
Summons lightning to bolster the caster's body.
Attacks become easier to deflect and resistance to all ailments is increased.
However, lightning damage negation will be reduced.
Only those loved by dragons can survive the ordeal of cladding their bodies in lightning.
This incantation literally makes it clear that, for us to use it, we need to be loved by a dragon. Only two people fit that during the game: Vyke and Godwyn. We are certainly not Vyke, and until the DLC, we are not favored by any dragon… unless we have Godwyn’s soul.
I believe many will be critical and think differently—and that’s fine—but I can’t see any sense in a story so brilliantly constructed where we’re just some random nobody who achieved no renown in life, only to be chosen by the royal steed right after being revived and then miraculously receive a visit from two demigoddesses, direct daughters of Marika and Radagon, and to be gifted by both of them. All the signs pointing to you being something greater than just a nameless Tarnished, believing in that “Tarnished of no renown.” origin ends up being an act of faith, and i think that’s one of the beauties of the game: even while giving hints of what the creators had in mind, it doesn’t dictate or point to a single answer, leaving room for you to believe in something else.