u/Unrepententheretic

Sin=Death and Suffering

The discussion about hell to my understanding is not just about which view is more biblical but also about philosophical and theological beliefs.

Let us also consider the character of God. God is life while sin is death and seperation from God. Faith and repentance reconcile us with God and the unforgivable sin is the refusal of repentance in the face of undeniable truth/good. What I believe is that only what is purified will remain of us. When the believer receives eternal life through christ the sinful part has died. Could it be also that what has potential for good in those punished is spared or preserved and born again after satisfactory payment of sin has been made through punishment and repentance? These could be the least in the kingdom of God.

Some theologians considered sin a sickness. Not long ago I had a discussion with someone who suggested the fire of hell might have a similiar effect to the fire that purifies believers. This is where my thought is similiar to what I remember to be prominent orthodox ideas about Hell being Gods love experienced as torment by sinners.

I understand the major debate between Infernalism, Annihinationalism and Universalism all try to preserve biblical harmony. But I wonder if these positions can actually be harmonized to some extent. So maybe we need to read scripture about hell and contrast it with other parts of scripture and theology.

I would kinda like to hear your thoughts and maybe also if what I wrote contradicts catholic teaching and whether there is a way to harmonize it.

The rich man neglected to comfort the suffering lazarus while alive, and lazarus did not receive comfort on earth. But when both died lazarus was comforted and the rich man felt tormented. The parable even gives that exact reason to the rich man as reason for his torment.

He neglected the commandment of love your neighbour by not caring about the poor beggar at his gate while he was feasting. The rich man even knew lazarus name in the afterlife which suggests he was quite familiar with him on earth already.

There is also the statement that Moses and the Prophets are enough warning to avoid such punishment which obviously and clearly refers to love your neighbour as yourself which is not so different from the popular concept "karma". Naturally karma is not a biblical teaching but it fits this parable quite well and even non-christians seem capable of making this connection.

I mean the parable is part of the gospel and not a standalone work so obviously the reason for the rich mans punishment is not simply being rich but neglecting the commandment love thy neighbour, care for the poor etc.

But unlike karma christianity is not about justification by works or good deeds but considers them natural expression of faith that lets us avoid the punishment for our sins. Jesus likewise spoke about storing up treasures in heaven and about being great in heaven depending on how one loves their neighbour and lives their faith.

It is quite fascinating how the bible can have similiar themes as other religions but has a distinct framework that is paralleled in the entire bible from OT to NT.

In the Hebrew Bible there is a place called Gehenna which over time became synonymous for hell.

During the late First Temple period, it was the site of the Tophet, where some of the kings of Judah had sacrificed their children by fire (Jeremiah 7:31). Thereafter, it was cursed by the biblical prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 19:2–6).

The Book of Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the "burning place" (30:33) in which the Assyrian army is to be destroyed, may be read "Topheth", and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns those that have rebelled against God (Isaiah 66:24).

Isaiah 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jesus directloy quotes from these passages, specifically "their worm shall not die". What theological implications has the fact that these worms never die? A possible answer seems to be the bodies become like statues of flesh as a reminder for others but does not clearly answer whether this entails conscious torment.

What seems confusing is that the bible uses the words "Eternal, Torment and Destruction" to describe hell. Naturally Eternal and Torment seem to describe a clear picture. But destruction seems to complicate matters. Destruction is a temporary action with lasting effects on earth. But in the afterlife destruction seems more like an everlasting process possible to be described as "Eternal Torment".

So the key question is do people in hell actively feel the torment or is more to be understood as the remains of people being forever in the fire as to be a reminder of their transgressions?

The only passage in the bible to specifically speak of conscious torment seems to be the parable of the rich man and lazarus.

This parable should be understood as part of Jesus theological teaching and not just an illustrative rhetoric pointed towards the pharisees, by showcasing the various references to other teachings of Jesus which certainly cannot be a simple coincidence.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

-"longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table" compare this with Matthew 15:27 [She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.”] Lazarus can represent the faithful canaanite woman.

-"Even the dogs came and licked his sores" compare this with Psalm 22:16 "For dogs encompass me;" more imagery linking Lazarus to a believing servant.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

-"the angels carried him to Abraham’s side" compare this with Matthew 24:31 "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." once again we see Lazarus linked to the faithful.

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Compare Abraham accusing the rich man to John 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. This supports that this parable speaks of prophetic judgement, just as Jesus did in John 5:45.

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Compare this last passage with John 5:46

46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

So not only does this parable predict how some will not be convinced despite the resurrection, but also seemingly implies that torment after death is found in the writings of the prophets like in Isaiah 66:22-24.

So if the place of torment Jesus describes here does not really exist than it would arguably be a much weaker statement to the pharisees and likely even considered ridicilous.

Therefore this parable seems to talk about hades/sheol and potential torment for sinners depending on their sins.

Revelations mentions angels tormenting sinners for eternity.

Let us also talk about christian tradition about hell outside of the bible. The apocalypse of Peter describes gruesome punishment in hell but surprisingly also claims the saints can intercede on their behalf which implies a universalist view, with some debate on the authenticity of this part tho.

Let us also quickly mention Sheol, Hades and the lake of fire. Sheol in the OT was understood similiar to Hades of the greeks or as a metaphor for the grave. The tradition of the harrowing of hell which was taught by the early church and we find referenced several times in the NT tells us that the souls in sheol of the righteous were taken up to heaven to wait for the day of judgement along with the saints. On the day of judgement Hades/Sheol will be thrown into the lake of fire, which aligns with the gospels and final judgement being gehenna/lake of fire or the kingdom of heaven.

Lastly what can we say? Sin=Suffering while there is some different interpretation regarding the nature of the suffering. The debate about hell to my understanding is not just about which view is more biblical but also about ones own philosophical and theological beliefs. One might characterize Sheol is the invention of the early faith and natural explanation, gehenna that of a more ethically sophisticated one and the response to ethical questions and universalim the hopes of the new faith.

Let us also look at the character of God. God is life and sin is death. But sin is also punishment. Faith and repentance reconcile us with God and the unforgivable sin is the refusal of repentance in the face of undeniable truth/good. What I am certain is that only the pure will remain. When the believer receives eternal life through christ the sinful part has died. Could it also be that what was good in those punished is spared and born again after satifactory payment of sin has been made through punishment and repentance? These would be the least in the kingdom.

In the Hebrew Bible there is a place called Gehenna which over time became synonymous for hell.

During the late First Temple period, it was the site of the Tophet, where some of the kings of Judah had sacrificed their children by fire (Jeremiah 7:31). Thereafter, it was cursed by the biblical prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 19:2–6).

The Book of Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the "burning place" (30:33) in which the Assyrian army is to be destroyed, may be read "Topheth", and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns those that have rebelled against God (Isaiah 66:24).

Isaiah 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jesus directloy quotes from these passages, specifically "their worm shall not die". What theological implications has the fact that these worms never die? A possible answer seems to be the bodies become like statues of flesh as a reminder for others but does not clearly answer whether this entails conscious torment.

What seems confusing is that the bible uses the words "Eternal, Torment and Destruction" to describe hell. Naturally Eternal and Torment seem to describe a clear picture. But destruction seems to complicate matters. Destruction is a temporary action with lasting effects on earth. But in the afterlife destruction seems more like an everlasting process possible to be described as "Eternal Torment".

So the key question is do people in hell actively feel the torment or is more to be understood as the remains of people being forever in the fire as to be a reminder of their transgressions?

The only passage in the bible to specifically speak of conscious torment seems to be the parable of the rich man and lazarus.

This parable should be understood as part of Jesus theological teaching and not just an illustrative rhetoric pointed towards the pharisees, by showcasing the various references to other teachings of Jesus which certainly cannot be a simple coincidence.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

-"longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table" compare this with Matthew 15:27 [She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.”] Lazarus can represent the faithful canaanite woman.

-"Even the dogs came and licked his sores" compare this with Psalm 22:16 "For dogs encompass me;" more imagery linking Lazarus to a believing servant.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

-"the angels carried him to Abraham’s side" compare this with Matthew 24:31 "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." once again we see Lazarus linked to the faithful.

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Compare Abraham accusing the rich man to John 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. This supports that this parable speaks of prophetic judgement, just as Jesus did in John 5:45.

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Compare this last passage with John 5:46

46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

So not only does this parable predict how some will not be convinced despite the resurrection, but also seemingly implies that torment after death is found in the writings of the prophets like in Isaiah 66:22-24.

So if the place of torment Jesus describes here does not really exist than it would arguably be a much weaker statement to the pharisees and likely even considered ridicilous.

Therefore this parable seems to talk about hades/sheol and potential torment for sinners depending on their sins.

Revelations mentions angels tormenting sinners for eternity.

Let us also talk about christian tradition about hell outside of the bible. The apocalypse of Peter describes gruesome punishment in hell but surprisingly also claims the saints can intercede on their behalf which implies a universalist view, with some debate on the authenticity of this part tho.

Let us also quickly mention Sheol, Hades and the lake of fire. Sheol in the OT was understood similiar to Hades of the greeks or as a metaphor for the grave. The tradition of the harrowing of hell which was taught by the early church and we find referenced several times in the NT tells us that the souls in sheol of the righteous were taken up to heaven to wait for the day of judgement along with the saints. On the day of judgement Hades/Sheol will be thrown into the lake of fire, which aligns with the gospels and final judgement being gehenna/lake of fire or the kingdom of heaven.

Lastly what can we say? Sin=Suffering while there is some different interpretation regarding the nature of the suffering. The debate about hell to my understanding is not just about which view is more biblical but also about ones own philosophical and theological beliefs. One might characterize Sheol is the invention of the early faith and natural explanation, gehenna that of a more ethically sophisticated one and the response to ethical questions and universalim the hopes of the new faith.

Let us also look at the character of God. God is life and sin is death. But sin is also punishment. Faith and repentance reconcile us with God and the unforgivable sin is the refusal of repentance in the face of undeniable truth/good. What I am certain is that only the pure will remain. When the believer receives eternal life through christ the sinful part has died. Could it also be that what was good in those punished is spared and born again after satifactory payment of sin has been made through punishment and repentance? These would be the least in the kingdom.