u/NarniaHome

I'm gonna preface this by saying that lets try to keep this completely in terms of the game.

But yeah this cult is not in any way far right extremists and actually preaches things that are far more in line with whats defined as left wing ideologies - that dosent make them a far left wing cult neither and they are against everything going on in the outside world and created their own society... But still almost everything they are preaching about and the whole "community" feel they have going on and what their bunkers is build up upon is clearly a lot more left leaning than right wing in their ideologies, and they are against everything in their own society and country which again is directly opposite to a nationalist or right wing as these happily would pride themselves on their own country wanting to proudly defend it actually like the resistance in this game does. Furthermore listen to Joseph's outpost preachings, read the Book of Joseph and get a look of their ideologies and how he build up the cult - He talks about how he despise his own country, complaints about consumerism or capitalism, and talks about the "arrogant skyscrapers in the big cities" with the "greedy government who doesn't care about poor people left out by the society". He talks all about "helping and accepting the people neglected or dismissed by their country" and he works towards creating a big community with a lot of people together and dependent on each other... They openly in several monologues bashes the person in charge and openly despise right wing ideologies. Also "Faith" and her whole hippie character about finding you inner peace and using drugs to hide away from the "evil world and harsh reality". She is literally a drugged up pacifist hippie who lives inside a fake "paradise" preaching peace and pacifism which is also the direct opposite of right wing logic...

The resistance terms the cult "hippies" a lot of times and are a lot more how you would define "right wing" Americans. Many of the resistance characters are "right wing" stereotypes like the Drubmans, and Adelaide also directly calls the peggies out to be "flag burning socialists". But also generally the resistance in the game are a lot more like the typical right wing with the whole "oh yeah murica, we want to protect our land with guns horrah".

If the cult in the game were supposed to illustrate a white supremacist or far right cult, they would have put actual focus on it and not put countless of things in game to say the opposite like literally for starters for instance NOT having literally 50% of the cultist members being black people and never have the antagonists saying anything remotely racistic or priding themselves on right wing ideologies - such is literally the main traits of white supremacists or far right...Only Jacob can have a logic remotely more towards the right but not necessarily at all... The other antagonists says and preaches about things which are a lot more towards left leaning ideologies. The lead writer also stated in interviews that this cult isn't a right wing cult but "gains members from all sides of the spectrum" They are just against the government and outside world generally.

As a non American, it seems like a lot of the people who claims that the cult is a "far right" are just biased people who just wants to shoot their political opponents... Because there is literally nothing or very little in this cult which objectively can be paired together with right wing ideologies.

TL:DR This cult almost couldn't be more far away from being far right wing extremists. Like where do people even get this from unless they out of bias just terms everything religious as right wing? While it is true that religion often can be paired together with some right wing ideologies, it is not in any way a definition of being right wing especially not in a cult where a lot of people aren't actual religious but just parrots their leader and again has created their own society away from the outside world.

I'm gonna preface this by saying that lets try to keep this completely in terms of the game.

But yeah this cult is not in any way far right extremists and actually preaches things that are far more in line with whats defined as left wing ideologies - that dosent make them a far left wing cult neither and they are against everything going on in the outside world and created their own society... But still almost everything they are preaching about and the whole "community" feel they have going on and what their bunkers is build up upon is clearly a lot more left leaning than right wing in their ideologies, and they are against everything in their own society and country which again is directly opposite to a nationalist or right wing as these happily would pride themselves on their own country wanting to proudly defend it actually like the resistance in this game does. Furthermore listen to Joseph's outpost preachings, read the Book of Joseph and get a look of their ideologies and how he build up the cult - He talks about how he despise his own country, complaints about consumerism or capitalism, and talks about the "arrogant skyscrapers in the big cities" with the "greedy government who doesn't care about poor people left out by the society". He talks all about "helping and accepting the people neglected or dismissed by their country" and he works towards creating a big community with a lot of people together and dependent on each other... They openly in several monologues bashes the person in charge and openly despise right wing ideologies. Also "Faith" and her whole hippie peace character about finding you inner peach and using drugs to hide away from the "evil world and harsh reality". She is literally a drugged up pacifist hippie who lives inside a fake "paradise" preaching peace and pacifism which is also the direct opposite of right wing logic...

The resistance terms the cult "hippies" a lot of times and are a lot more how you would define "right wing" Americans. Many of the resistance characters are "right wing" stereotypes like the Drubmans, and Adelaide also directly calls the peggies out to be "flag burning socialists". But also generally the resistance in the game are a lot more like the typical right wing with the whole "oh yeah murica, we want to protect our land with guns horrah". Hell the whole whitetail militia is a lot more a commentary on this whole "american right" and gun culture.

If the cult in the game were supposed to illustrate a white supremacist or far right cult, they would have put actual focus on it and not put countless of things in game to say the opposite like literally for starters for instance NOT having literally 50% of the cultist members being black people and never have the antagonists saying anything remotely racistic or priding themselves on right wing ideologies - such is literally the main traits of white supremacists or far right...Only Jacob can have a logic remotely more towards the right but not necessarily at all...  The other antagonists says and preaches about things which are a lot more towards left leaning ideologies. The lead writer also stated in interviews that this cult isn't a right wing cult but "gains members from all sides of the spectrum" They are just against the government and outside world generally.

As a non American, it seems like a lot of the people who claims that the cult is a "far right" are just biased people who just wants to shoot their political opponents... Because there is literally nothing or very little in this cult which objectively can be paired together with right wing ideologies.

TL:DR This cult almost couldn't be more far away from being far right wing extremists. Like where do people even get this from unless they out of bias just terms everything religious as right wing? While it is true that religion often can be paired together with some right wing ideologies, it is not in any way a definition of being right wing especially not in a cult where a lot of people aren't actual religious but just parrots their leader and again has created their own society away from the outside world.

Maybe I should preface this by saying that this is about examining a character objectively and what is actually being conveyed by the devs and not if we personally like the character or not.

Anyway I seem to learn that(only here) It is somehow a bit controversial or a hot take to call Faith a victim here and framing her as that which makes no sense by itself as everything literally confirms it. I'm kinda curious what the heck is going on here and how players literally can come to some conclusions I've seen? Some of the comments is literally just victim blaming or just straight up wrong like this one I got: "she one of the worst she's fully aware of her actions and she doesn't care and CHOOSES to continue on with things I'm 100% if we didn't have Joseph she would 10000% be in charge in his place like the mental gymnastics y'all go through to simp for this woman is wild" etc - literally every claim in this is objectively wrong with zero evidence to confirm it and this is regardless whether you like her or not. But yet such comment still gets plenty of upvotes which only shows that what I'm saying is relevant. I don't know if it is actually ignorance to the lore, just ragebait or simply players who rush to demoralize the tragic female character because of this casual misogynism reddit is known for. I'm genuinely curious tho.

It is a common reddit thing that if something is non controversial and a completely obvious take anywhere else, that when posted on reddit it gets talked down to because people apparently are wrapped up so much in their own bias and/or in this case "casual" misogynism downplaying the tragedy and victimization of the obvious female victim making her worse than other villains because "she has done bad things" (which doesn't in any way make her not a victim) rather than objectively looking into the provided lore and information letting that define how you view the whole thing. As reddit has a reputation for being casually or very misogynistic in a lot of subs, the fact that a lot of vocal players are like that here is not really a surprise but still disturbing victim blaming...

But yeah what I want to talk about again is how people literally act like Faith isn't a genuine victim in this and people only feel sorry for her because she is a "sweet" girl or playing the victim which is just no. It is really funny with this immature manchild logic here that people cant feel pity towards or acknowledge a female character as a pawn caught up in a bad situation without getting accused for being a simp or that it is because she is a girl when it is clear for anyone who have paid the slightest attention to anything that Faith is a character with more than enough valid evidence beyond "her being a female" to confirm her as a truly tragic, lesser evil character brainwashed into this and yeah objectively lesser evil and with better redeeming qualities than the others. It shouldnt be hard to find out for anyone with the slightest bit of literacy... You people probably just calls everyone a simp for feeling pity towards a female character and again a character with a lot of objective sympathy aspects and a literal textbook definition of a tragic and victimized character caught up in a bad situation and brainwashed which again along with many other things also makes her significantly different than the others both in terms of willingness/self motivation/agency in this whole thing but also level of evil. Heck even the freaking lead writer of the game stated in a livestream on twitch that Faith is more a victim of Joseph than anything compared to her "brothers" when he was asked which of them was the most twisted where he started off by saying "it's gotta be between John and Jacob right". Which only further reinforces this.

The collapse DLC also explicitly confirms this further that she is literally hooked on to this bliss brainwashed and out of her mind to believe she brings peace with it - the bliss keeps her in compliance and it keeps her from whatever doubt she might have about Joseph and what she does until in the end where she snaps out of it. Like many other things like her attempting to escape from him before the events of the game, how she literally attempts to throw away her title of "Faith" losing every piece of "devotion" to Joseph the second he can't control her with bliss anymore aswell as countless of other things which explicitly shows that Faith didn't became what she became due to her own judgement, that it happened over long time entrapment and brainwashing, and In game literally being hooked on to and brainwashed on the same thing which blinds her to her true self. It couldn't be more explicitly confirmed.

So no: it is not just because Faith is a woman but because she truly and objectively is the most tragic and lesser evil character of the game and clearly most redeemable regardless if you personally like the character. Hell she can even be considered the most tragic, lesser evil and the one with the best means of redemption in the whole franchise especially also because she is still very young and almost barely an adult which should speak for itself. Like I dont see anyone around the internet who say these things for Citra, Yuma or so and guess why: Because she is actually an evil manipulative person in game fully self motivated, not victimized in any way generally without much reason to be sympathized with despite her "being a woman" unlike Faith who is literally a textbook definition of a tragic character with many reasons to be sympathized with for most people.

I think It is funny but also disturbing that when a character clearly is casted as this lesser evil and tragic victimized antagonist you are MEANT to feel a great level of pity towards in a game, there is always you players especially on reddit who deliberately does the opposite and be like "she is the worst" especially if it is a female PURELY because she actually is presented as the sympathetic, victimized or lesser evil in the game casted as this character you are meant to feel pity toward. And on top of that then people go on to call absolutely 100% vile, irredeemable and evil characters like Pagan Min or Paul etc for characters which are "tangible, understable and likeable" when these characters literally are 100% evil 100% all the time who doesn't carry any actual human and understable qualities, doesn't even has any human motives and openly admits that they do what they do out of amusement and pleasure. Like it really says a lot about the moral compass or again just misogynism about players here and how they view absolutely on and about pure evil characters who wasn't in any way tricked, forced or coerced into being who they are but instead got there by openly malicious means, and generally isn't in any way framed in a tragic way. But the actual clearly tragic young girl who was purely groomed and brainwashed into what she is with a lot of understable reasoning and qualities to be sympathized with and reasons to believe that she could be redeemed and getting help: "Naah I'm not a simp, screw her she is the worst".

That's it and I'm genuinely curious what is going on. Fair if you dosent like her character but that is not what is talked about at all neither. People need to learn to seperate their own subjectivity from actually talking about what objectively is being conveyed with a character.

EXTRA: Yeah some of this wording from me here sounds rude and pretentious but it is how it is with a lot of(not everyone) people here. If the only thing people can do is throwing simplistic buzzwords without any argumentation like "haha go touch grass, it is a video game" or something like that to me posting a longer than two paragraph comment for instance or calling people a simp or saying "she is no victim, she kills people" to me stating in depth facts in several paragraphs about a character then it is hard to not very quickly see a pattern... The worst thing? That such comments actually often gets upvoted and longer in depth comments gets downvoted, and again that is not only me and not only this topic but generally which yeah shows the general low mindset going on here.

Edit: I'm genuinely wondering if people who responds actually fully reads this before responding.

Excuse me for being very direct and with the warning of sounding generalizing but now I have been here for some time making a post and posting some comments delving into the ambiguity or just themes/things/characters in this game, and I often got some backlash of some posters mostly posting immature comments that either dodged or had nothing to do with the point or simply just throwing immature buzzwording my way clearly because a lot of vocal players here just doesn't like that you are throwing a wrench in their "righteous" and "HeRo" mindset which again is just very objectively what the game does and shows aswell even tho a lot of players also are having a hard time accepting it and the message generally for some reason even tho it should be pretty obvious for anyone - players who doesn't believe me should really watch interviews or just learn having a bit of media literacy.

I'm not saying it is everyone, but it is actually weird because you would expect in a fandom that people actually likes to delve detailed and nuanced into characters, their lore and motivations aswell as messages, themes as it directly meant to be questioned and interpreted by the developers, but apparently a lot of people on reddit are just doomscrollers who can't or won't look to much into anything. Comments like "too long didn't read", "go touch grass" or the classical "you are overanalyzing" when outdebated etc. is widely used which is comments that shouldn't even be possibly spouted in a supposed fandom as you would expect that players in such place are really into analyzing things rather than simplifying everything which both includes characters and their lore aswell as the narrative itself.

Also immature buzzwording like "stop licking Josephs boot", "learn to use more commas" "simping" etc without any argumentation simply because immature players doesn't like whats being said but can't provide anything remotely mature or intelligent but just that - really the typical and very immature American way of debating here...

A bit of a sudden example but still a fine example that further reinforce my point is my recent post here: Faith is definitely a victim and not just playing the victim - how a lot of players just responds very immature and having zero indsigt or interest in analysing anything calling you "simp" and so on which again is completely immature and irrelevant.

I guess here on reddit a lot of players are just fps kids who just wants to run around and do headshots not actually caring about story content or looking deep into characters arcs - the recent post about cutscenes and complaining about how they are "LoNg, AnNoYiNg, BoRiNg" also kinda confirms how a lot of players are that above. Furthermore players have zero self awareness to their own character and automatically believes "main character" or "side of good" means = no ambiguity which again is really shallow thinking.

Generally I've seen a lot of objectively correct and more detailed in depth comments/interpretations which gets downvoted or talked down to in favor of some incorrect and simplistic comments which gets applaused, which yeah just shows the general low mindset of a lot of everyday redditors and how a lot of people are extremely lore dumb or lore ignoring and also lacks the ability to look into things a little more than a simple minded dudebro perception a lot of times simplifying everything making things about throwing immature sentences with zero argumentation like "like stop licking Josephs boot", "stop simping", "go touch grass", "learn to grammar" "not reading that" and so on completely unrelated or irellevant providing zero actual argumentation which yeah really shows how poorly educated, very immature and generally unintiligent a lot of people here apparently are. The worst thing? That such comments actually often gets upvoted and longer in depth comments gets downvoted, and again that is not only me but generally especially about this "ambiguity" topic because players just doesn't like whats being said and the fact that the game and thus people throws a wrench in their "righteous" and "hero" narrative which you just doesn't like out of pure bias or pride.

So yeah it really seems that plenty of people here on Reddit generally are very simplistic minded apparently and completely lacking in basic literacy, and yeah again it is weird because you would expect in a fandom that people wants to delve into the reasoning and motivations of the antagonists and looking into a story, themes and characters as directly intended rather than just simplify everything down to "they are just villains, they do bad things, police officer is good nothing more" because their simplistic fps mindset won't allow looking more into things as directly intended in these games generally and has been a common theme in most of them. And yeah some of this wording from me here sounds rude and pretentious but it is how it is with a lot of(not everyone) people here. If the only thing people can do is throwing simplistic buzzwords without any argumentation like "haha go touch grass, it is a video game" or something like that to me posting a longer than two paragraph comment for instance or calling people a simp for stating facts about a character then it is hard to not very quickly see a pattern.