u/MSHUser

Just want to see how many of us are out there.

I often hear stories of people who once identified as feminists, and then rejected it later. It's definitely an observable pattern going on, but I notice this actually happens in mainstream environments, where members come to realize what they've been told doesn't match up to their reality.

The men and women who once identified as feminists don't anymore, and they moved on to embracing traditional dynamics (makes sense since most heterosexuals ik embrace them).

But most stories follow a clear pattern of moving away from egalitarian dynamic and embracing traditional gender roles. Nothing against this, but there are those of us whom that lifestyle isn't a fit for (not even egalitarian dynamics).

This brings me to the topic I want to talk about. Alternative spaces.

I'm talking niche spaces that are populated with minority members. Think LGBTQ, BDSM, Role Reversal, Goth, etc.

The good thing about these spaces is it provides a community for those who don't fit the typical norm of man and woman. The problem? These spaces are ones I think are very knee deep in feminist ideology. I'm not talking about just being a casual feminist (i.e someone who just thinks feminism is about equality and nothing beyond that). I'm talking someone who actually buys into feminist concepts and theories. Most alternative members in my experience are in the latter category.

I can theorize why that could be the case, often dealing with feeling like outsiders or in some cases ostracized for not fitting what's considered the norm (though not sure how true that is considering the acceptance culture we live in). Gender expectations would play a huge role, especially in the rise of people embracing gender norms and emphasizing biological sex differences (which tends to focus on broad averages, which ends up alienating alternative people). Note: I have nothing against acknowledging biological sex differences and broad averages, but everytime this topic comes up, it's either we emphasize the broad averages while minimizing the minorities, or we completely ignore broad averages and pretend those minorities are more common than they actually are (or in the case of socially constructionism, we deliberate build environments to reversing these dynamics). If minorities were truly common, there wouldn't be a need for any dedicated communities to bring them together.

This is where feminism comes in. The oppressive narratives it feeds people, criticizing gender as a performance rather than being, pathologizing their interests (I'm sure I'm missing a lot more here) speaks to their already existing experience. What's the mapping here?

Oppressive -> speaks to their experience of feeling like an outsider and in some cases lead to bullying

Gender as a performance -> their everyday behaviour never really fit in to what's expected of their gender. So rather than think they're just a biological minority, they now think many people are performing gender rather than just being.

Pathologizing interest -> This one I had personal experience. I told a close friend what I was into back then, and they tried convincing me I had this due to being abused by my mom. On that note, my mom was not the best person, but her behaviour was pretty common in the culture I come from, and many men from that same culture don't have this preference I have, so it didn't add up. I got other variations of this growing up as well.

When you think about it, how feminist narratives are constructed has a heavy appeal to this kind of group. It's like how the redpill speaks to men whom feel society sees nothing but the good in modern women and ignoring the bad they do, or dismissing dynamics rooted in evolutionary psychology.

So this brings me to the question I want to ask. How many of us in this sub are out there?

So after today's conversation, what I fear of my close family member pretty much came to life. He believes masculinity/femininity are social constructs and he's pansexual. I don't care about sexuality labels as anyone can identify with any sexuality, it's just that when I see labels that deny gender or sex differences, I often get a 'woke' vibe from it.

This really sticks out to me because as someone who considers myself a sexual minority, this belief is like a slap to the face. Now I can't discuss about broad averages with him without pushing back on this. And I don't even care about the broad averages, but I care enough to think how this will affect minorities outside of this average. I care about this because mainstream leftists often emphasize social constructionism views to the point they either ignore or dismiss broad trends that actually affect how we interact with the environment.

To paint the picture, I had a breakdown yesterday over a multitude of things like how everything is so polarized, everyone forms tribes via ideology, everyone has expectations of you or pathologizes you cuz you're a man, etc. and because I feel like I'm the only one trying to stay true to myself in a world that tries confining me to different expectations (either conforming to traditional gender norms, or fully believing they're constructionally made and therefore ignore any biological basis or dismiss broad trends as mass socialization of society), that I often feel like I'm alone in what I do despite being surrounded by support systems that don't actually get it.

The next day, he spoke to me about this, and there were things he said that really hit a nerve like 'You think this world in a narrow way, you need to take perspective.' I pushed back on this as I don't believe this is remotely true. The point I was trying to point out is even if I don't agree with the expectations out there, I still have to face them at high frequencies when I do go out there. He kept asking me 'why does it matter? Why do you care about what they think?' and he showed me he doesn't really understand. Of course what they say and do don't matter to me, but it doesn't make a difference when my body is constantly exposed to that that it's hard to resist it. A lot of the communication that happens here is a heavy usage of very loaded words, so we just keep talking past each other using generic language that we don't often get to talk about specifics. Or rather, he and I both have our own perspectives of those loaded words that during the heated moment, that's the script we ran with.

After that, I shared with him that I'm a sexual minority and need to consider alternative strategies (I wish I hadn't opened up to him about that but it happened). That's when he shared he's pansexual and looking for 50/50 with his dates most of whom are girls (nothing against that, but I wonder if he's going against his own natural instincts for this). I'm a big believer of not going against how you're naturally made, largely because I have experienced the massive cognitive dissonance and persistent discomfort going against how I naturally am. He's made a lot of changes in his life emotionally which I'm happy for, but now I'm concerned that this change would come with being instilled with woke ideology (he's in therapy, so it's likely some of his beliefs came from there).

And now my biggest gripe is this. He keeps saying "I'm no longer alone, that I have him and the family." But considering the views he just shared which ties to feminism and gender ideology, I can't believe him when he says I'm not alone.

But here's the thing. If I hold onto this and have the mindset that I'm generally alone with how I operate and the environment is out to polarize me, I'm gonna end up having breakdowns again and again. It's cuz the pressure of trying to show up genuinely in an environment that has an ideologically driven sense of genuiness, followed up an inability to have financial resources to actually leave this environment behind to find another one is making me feeling like wanting to scream and punch walls (which is what I usually do when I have breakdowns).

So I want to address this so my breakdown doesn't happen again, but it's not like I can say "My belief comes from a biological standpoint and I don't believe in these differences being socially constructed, and you bought into woke ideology" without expecting any pushbacks or conflicts arising from it. Now I have to run this balance of staying true to myself without pushing any of his ideology buttons, and it's starting to turn into an artform rather than just communication how i believe and feel.

Now I can't take his earlier statement (i.e take perspective, you have a narrow worldview) seriously without considering if he's influenced by woke ideology.

When I say I'm alone, I mean I'm surrounded by an environment that either wants to conform me to the traditional gender norm (in both traditional or progressive spaces) or they say they believe in equality, yet at the same time, pathologize normal male behaviour and experiences and still expect men to take the masculine role cuz "women see men as a threat that they don't want to make the first move yet". At least he accepts when I say I'm a straight sexual minority who has atypical attraction patterns and generally understands I'm looking for something in the minority, which does feel like validation. That's the only reason this conversation ultimately made me feel better, even though I also don't like what I've figured out from it.

I don't usually support the redpill, but they talk about a narrative of woman stepping up to a masculine role just cuz the man she's with doesn't take that role himself, and she resents him for it and cheats on him with another man. This matters to me as someone who's into more masculine qualities in women. I do not want this narrative to be my actual experience as it has happened with my first ex gf, which is why I'm focusing a lot on the biological part of this, as I feel too much focus on social constructionist views deny biological influences.

So here's what I think going forward. I don't think the breakdowns is gonna stop, and I genuinely do not want to feel like I'm alone in my own battles. I try to keep myself centered as I actually do have plans to deal with the environment where I can genuinely be myself in a world that expects something else out of me, but the emotional weight I'm carrying becomes way too hard to carry, I'm gonna eventually crash out at one point before I get the chance to make meaningful progress. I want to believe I don't have to be alone cuz I have him now and he's giving me that reassurance, but now I feel like I can't let him close cuz his views might end up invalidating my experience and could muddy those waters more. I don't want to latch onto false hope just because I feel alone in my endeavor. I wish I had others that actually resonate with how I think and feel and are actually experiencing what I'm going through, but I will NEVER make room for woke/feminist ideology nor the rigid traditionalist view of what it is to be a man/woman. But each time I interact with the environment, I always feels there's gonna be some insidious way someone is gonna inject their views onto me like I don't have any autonomy myself.

Long-story short, I need help on how to tackle this the next time this happen. I'm turning here for suggestions. I know this is not a therapy space, but I don't trust therapy due to it being heavily influenced by leftist feminist think.

EDIT: He actually didn't know what pansexual means. Once he looked it up, he immediately didn't identify with it.

So after today's conversation, what I fear of my brother pretty much came to life. He believes masculinity/femininity are social constructs and he's pansexual. Both of these pretty much deny the existence of gender.

This really sticks out to me because as someone who considers myself a sexual minority, this belief is like a slap to the face. Now I can't discuss about broad averages with him without pushing back on this. And I don't even care about the broad averages, but I care enough to think how this will affect minorities outside of this average.

To paint the picture, I had a breakdown yesterday over a multitude of things like how everything is so polarized, everyone forms tribes via ideology, everyone has expectations of you or pathologizes you cuz you're a man, etc. and because I feel like I'm the only one trying to stay true to myself in a world that tries confining me to different expectations (either conforming to traditional gender norms, or fully believing they're constructionally made and therefore ignore any biological basis or dismiss broad trends as mass socialization of society), that I often feel like I'm alone in what I do despite being surrounded by support systems that don't actually get it.

The next day, he spoke to me about this, and there were things he said that really hit a nerve like 'You think this world in a narrow way, you need to take perspective.' I pushed back on this as I don't believe this is remotely true. The point I was trying to point out is even if I don't agree with the expectations out there, I still have to face them at high frequencies when I do go out there. He kept asking me 'why does it matter? Why do you care about what they think?' and he showed me he doesn't really understand. Of course what they say and do don't matter to me, but it doesn't make a difference when my body is constantly exposed to that that it's hard to resist it. A lot of the communication that happens here is a heavy usage of very loaded words, so we just keep talking past each other using generic language that we don't often get to talk about specifics. Or rather, he and I both have our own perspectives of those loaded words that during the heated moment, that's the script we ran with.

After that, I shared with him that I'm a sexual minority and need to consider alternative strategies (I wish I hadn't opened up to him about that but it happened). That's when he shared he's pansexual and looking for 50/50 with his dates most of whom are girls (nothing against that, but I wonder if he's going against his own natural instincts for this). I'm a big believer of not going against how you're naturally made, largely because I have experienced the massive cognitive dissonance and persistent discomfort going against how I naturally am. He's made a lot of changes in his life emotionally which I'm happy for, but now I'm concerned that this change would come with being instilled with ideology (he's in therapy, so it's likely some of his beliefs came from there).

And now my biggest gripe is this. He keeps saying "I'm no longer alone, that I have him and the family." But considering the views he just shared which ties to feminism and gender ideology, I can't believe him when he says I'm not alone.

But here's the thing. If I hold onto this and have the mindset that I'm generally alone with how I operate and the environment is out to polarize me, I'm gonna end up having breakdowns again and again. It's cuz the pressure of trying to show up genuinely in an environment that has an ideologically driven sense of genuiness, followed up an inability to have financial resources to actually leave this environment behind to find another one is making me feeling like wanting to scream and punch walls (which is what I usually do when I have breakdowns).

So I want to address this so my breakdown doesn't happen again, but it's not like I can say "My belief comes from a biological standpoint and I don't believe in these differences being socially constructed, and you bought into woke ideology" without expecting any pushbacks or conflicts arising from it. Now I have to run this balance of staying true to myself without pushing any of his ideology buttons, and it's starting to turn into an artform rather than just communication how i believe and feel.

Now I can't take his earlier statement (i.e take perspective, you have a narrow worldview) seriously without considering if he's influenced by woke ideology.

When I say I'm alone, I mean I'm surrounded by an environment that either wants to conform me to the traditional gender norm (in both traditional or progressive spaces) or they say they believe in equality, yet at the same time, pathologize normal male behaviour and experiences and still expect men to take the masculine role cuz "women see men as a threat that they don't want to make the first move yet". At least my brother accepts when I say I'm a straight sexual minority who has atypical attraction patterns and generally understands I'm looking for something in the minority, which does feel like validation. That's the only reason this conversation ultimately made me feel better, even though I also don't like what I've figured out from it.

I don't usually support the redpill, but they talk about a narrative of woman stepping up to a masculine role just cuz the man she's with doesn't take that role himself, and she resents him for it and cheats on him with another man. This matters to me as someone who's into more masculine qualities in women. I do not want this narrative to be my actual experience as it has happened with my first ex gf, which is why I'm focusing a lot on the biological part of this, as I feel too much focus on social constructionist views deny biological influences.

So here's what I think going forward. I don't think the breakdowns is gonna stop, and I genuinely do not want to feel like I'm alone in my own battles. I try to keep myself centered as I actually do have plans to deal with the environment where I can genuinely be myself in a world that expects something else out of me, but the emotional weight I'm carrying becomes way too hard to carry, I'm gonna eventually crash out at one point before I get the chance to make meaningful progress. I want to believe I don't have to be alone cuz I have him now and he's giving me that reassurance, but now I feel like I can't let him close cuz his views might end up invalidating my experience and could muddy those waters more. I don't want to latch onto false hope just because I feel alone in my endeavor. I wish I had others that actually resonate with how I think and feel and are actually experiencing what I'm going through, but I will NEVER make room for woke/feminist ideology nor the rigid traditionalist view of what it is to be a man/woman. But each time I interact with the environment, I always feels there's gonna be some insidious way someone is gonna inject their views onto me like I don't have any autonomy myself.

Long-story short, I need help on how to tackle this the next time this happen. I'm turning here for suggestions. I know this is not a therapy space, but I don't trust therapy due to it being heavily influenced by leftist feminist think.

This post came directly from the Instagram account the female quotient.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DXfIJ7wETJq/?igsh=MXgwcG05MmdhMDkyYw==

It's criticising the point anti feminists keep pointing out. They seem to address the fact that women were represented by the man, that politics was too "dirty" for them, and generally unfit for the public lifestyle. Based on the info it shares, it talks strictly about US history.

She does mention in the 1920, women did gain the right to vote. There is one historical fact that i see no feminist nor anti feminist talk about.

It's about the secret ballot. Between the 18th-19th century, not only were voting rights restricted, but they were also public as well. That meant whoever you voted for, the people around you could see that as well. Partisanship was not so different than our time, but I believe back then it was more dangerous there to the point of homicide because whoever you voted for was publicly tied to your name.

It wasn't until 1884 that some states adopted the secret ballot system (but not the full Australian system). By 1950 (roughly after all states granted women the right to vote), secret ballots were fully implemented in all states. That means votes are now private instead of public, reducing danger and increasing protection from partisanship.

My understanding of this is that during the times voting was public was also the time women weren't allowed to vote, instead being represented by the man. This could hark back to the whole public vs private sphere we're talking about. But based on the recent instagram post, it seems they're aware of this point, but disagreed with it as more historical sexism. Though I have not seen anything in their post that suggests most anti-suffragettes were actually women. Many of the old cartoon sketches were that of "man vs woman".

What do you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot#United_States

https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/murder-of-octavius-catto/

https://ecppec.ncl.ac.uk/features/electoral-corruption-in-the-long-eighteenth-century/

https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/feature/britain-elections-history