u/Crownie

The HORUS Minotaur

Previously: HORUS Manticore

Next: HORUS Pegasus

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Oh boy, am I going to be mean to this mech. If you’re thinking about the Minotaur, grab a Calendula instead.

The Minotaur is conventionally understood as a hacking frame. It has a single main/aux mount, no damage trait, and a tech attack bonus. On the other hand, it also has 8 sensors, 12 HP, decent (5) heat cap, and passable (4) repair cap. This mech is not meant to be a nerdy keyboard jockey slinging scripts from across the map like the Goblin. It even has super-engagement as a frame trait to suggest you’re supposed to be in the scrum.

Unfortunately, I think this split stat layout just makes it mediocre at everything. It’s not incapable, but almost anything you want to do (including being a burly hacker) is done better with another frame. Despite the 12 HP, it doesn’t tank or spank hard enough to mix it up in a brawl, especially since you will need to be pumping both Hull and Systems (nor is it fast or evasive enough to mitigate damage that way). But 8 sens is not enough to stay safe and a single weapon mount is a critical lack of redundancy for a frame that expects to be in range to get shot a decent amount.

The main selling point of this frame is its Core Passive: Metafold Maze, and I’m not convinced. You could certainly do worse than a on-demand Immobilize + Impair (as we’ll see), and the ability to deliver a no-save Stun if you met the right conditions is theoretically powerful. Meeting those conditions is not trivial, however, and making using of this system is very hard on your action economy. It can be very powerful in specific team compositions where you have another frame to tee you up for the Stun, but that means you need a teammate running specific pieces of equipment (e.g. Pinning Spire or Impaler Nailgun) and circumstances where the Stun isn’t overkill. Hardly an impossible set of conditions to meet, but one you’re unlikely to stumble into.

The fact that its systems are pretty underwhelming as well puts the Minotaur in a very awkward spot, since you’re going to need to diversify into Goblin other licenses in order to do your job. That means you’re not coming online until LL3 (and arguably later – by far the most effective trick I’ve seen for a Minotaur requires Hor_OS I and the Impaler, meaning at least LL5). And even then, you’re just playing a fat, near-sighted goblin.

Regarding the Core Active: I think this is another frame that was hurt by pre-dating ‘Efficient’. The ability to point your finger and say ‘you’re Stunned now’ is pretty good. The potential for that to last multiple turns is likely overkill (and doesn’t work on the one enemy type you’ll care about it for, Ultras).

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Minotaur Systems: well, hey, the frame may be lackluster, but at least it has solid licenses, right?

• Mesmer Charges: Another set of trick grenades. Hurray. (I’m pretty down on grenades, if you hadn’t noticed). Mesmer Mines being an AOE immobilize is decent, and I’m sure there’s some galaxy-brained shit you can do with the Mesmer Beacon, but it comes pre-nerfed with 2 charges and for the most part the grenade is inferior to more repeatable forced movement. It is a constraint on their movement if they move, but if that is disadvantageous they can just... not move (see my comments on VLS for the more general form of this problem).

• Viral Logic Suite: Banish can, theoretically, inflict 8 heat in one turn, which is getting dangerously close to ‘viable’ as far as heat-gunning goes. Unfortunately, my experience is that (like a lot of Lancer's control options) it suffers from the Browbeat problem (for the MTG players among us): if you give your opponent a choice of negative consequences, you’ll never get the one you want. Logic Bomb is more straightforward, being an AOE slow. I don’t really have much to say about it other than it never turning out to be as impactful as I’d hope.

• Aggressive System Sync: Full Techs have a problem in Lancer, and that problem is that they are bad. I don’t think this is something intrinsic to Full Techs so much as it is something that seems to have unintentionally resulted from patterns of design choices. PC actions are worth more than NPC actions (usually), so crowd control effects need to be trading at better than 1-1 to be worthwhile (usually). Neither ASS FT meets this criterion. Rather, both rely on conditional Heat threats that aren’t that scary to most NPCs on account of their massive heat caps. You’re effectively 2-0ing yourself, which is not what the Magic players among us would call ‘value’.

• Metafold Carver: how good this is depends on how your GM lets you abuse readied actions. If they have an expansive definition of what qualifies as an acceptable trigger, you can effectively use Fold Space to nuke a hostile character’s turn. Otherwise, the applications are a lot more niche. Ophidian Trek is unreliable (though it does have Sunzi synergy on account of being a teleport) and mostly inferior to Puppet Systems from Hor_Os I. Fold Space has some defensive applications if your GM isn’t letting you use it as a stasis gun – you can banish an exposed (or Exposed) friendly to hammerspace until their turn rolls around, for example – but is generally kind of niche.

• Interdiction Field: brutally timemogged by Wandering Nightmare Burst 3 is a fairly large area (especially on size 2/3 frames), and a lot of builds won’t care much about being slowed, so this has its uses. The teleport denial is a niche side-benefit, but the primary value is just turning yourself into a mobile tarpit. Like almost every 3 SP system, it feels overcosted, but what can you do?

• Law of Blades: unlike ASS, which I think is pretty unreservedly bad, the Law of Blades Full Techs are… situational. Still not amazing, in my opinion, but there are some contexts where you can get remarkable value out of them.

HORUS Manticore

The mech of a million memes, but also Horus’ other bruiser (besides the Balor), the Manticore is a mech with an incredibly versatile stat line. Decent HP, good edef, good armor (2), a TA bonus, and above average heat cap. The only stand out weaknesses are that it is slow (easy to compensate for) and has SSC-tier repair cap (not good, but if you’re running a Manticore you’re probably pumping hull anyway).

The combination of TA bonus and Heavy mount (plus some of the licenses native to the frame) make the Manticore one of, if not the premiere frames for an Lesson of Thinking Tomorrow’s Thought melee builds. More broadly, it probably fills the “gish” role of a hybrid striker/hakcer better than any other frame in Lancer. That could mean melee, but it could just as easily mean Combined Arms or Vanguard. The usual suspects like the Tortuga and Goblin offer obvious picks for supporting licenses, but gear from the Tokugawa can be an important part of roleplaying a Sith in Lancer.

Castigate The Enemies of the Godhead bears special mention: it’s a piece of interactive flavor text. Your mech should not be exploding all the time. Your other traits, including Slag Carapace and Charged Exoskeleton, are quite powerful (especially against certain enemies, like Scourers). Overall, the Manticore lends it self fairly well to a wide variety of builds, including just “big, burly striker.” It's one of the rare frames where you're picking it far more for the frame itself than for the licenses.

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The Licenses

• Catalyst Pistol: hot take, this is a strong contender for worst license in the game. 2 heat per Catalyst Pistol is… bad. The ability to do small amounts of damage in a not-that-large AOE is not something you need a lot, and most of the time you’ll prefer other options. Every synergy I can think of is just a bad idea and every application has an alternative that is, if not strictly better than at least close to it. The ideal use case is frying grunts, but I don’t even think it is good for that. It hits a bigger area than a Thermal Pistol, but the possibility of rolling a 1 for damage means that even on hit you may fail to kill a significant subset of grunts.

• Beckoner: this is a pair of invades that require a bit more of the galaxy brain to make useful, but both of them definitely have their place. Beckon allows you to swap places with another mech, Summon allows you to pull enemies to the center of an area. Beckon is a little spicy for most non-Manticores, but can be a help for getting slower CQC mechs into action (with the added upside of potentially putting an enemy in a bad spot). Summon is clearly meant to synergize with the Arc Projector and Cat Pistol, but honestly works with any AOE weapon to some degree. The fact that there’s no save against the Pull makes it more reliable (though less versatile) than the Iskander’s Gravity Gun.

• Arc Projector: another weapon I’m pretty down on. 1 heat for 1d6+1 is a decent rate, but it’s eating your heavy slot and the associated opportunity cost is pretty high for a fairly situational AOE weapon. In theory this can go nuts, but my experience has been that it won’t. It’s also less reliable than more conventional AOE heavies like the Krakatoa or Thermal Lance. Even if the enemies are all clustered up, your attacks are made in sequence, so a single miss ends the party, whereas the aforementioned make their attacks in parallel.

• Smite: an Invade system with Smite and Sear. Both inflict 1d6+2 energy damage, which makes them hard to use on frames other than the Manticore and Balor. Sear is pretty mediocre. Self-damage and a max of 8 heat under extremely ideal circumstances versus NPC heat caps is not a great use of actions or HP. Smite, on the other hand, is amazing. It is the only on-demand Stun in the base game, and Stun is extremely powerful. It can be a little dicey because it requires a TA hit and a failed save, but if you’ve got this you’re only one Horus license away from LotOD and that sweet +2 to Save Target.

• Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Pulse: well, at least the Manticore has suicide synergies in its kit. I lied when I said Smite was the only on-demand Stun, but that’s because I memoryholed this system. A self-Stun in exchange for a small AOE chance at Stun is a fantastic way to eat shit. There are niche scenarios where you can mitigate the severe downside (e.g. by going last and then first), but that necessarily limits this system’s application as well. If you really want to turn yourself into a stun grenade, look at Stuncrown instead.

• Lightning Generator: this is a neat system I’ve never quite been able to figure out, but admittedly that’s because I haven’t used it much. On one level, it’s free damage. On the other hand, the mandatory activation when you’re in the Danger Zone is pressure on your heat management that you may not care for with many builds (e.g. Nuke Cav builds that want to get in the DZ and stay there). Also, it’s three SP. Like a lot of 3 SP systems, you really need to want it.

The MC80 and other Mon Cal cruisers are odd beasts. Officially, they are all converted civilian ships – primarily passenger liners and city-ships. This is not unprecedented in the real world. There’s a long history of merchant ships and other civilian vessels being pressed into military service, particularly for escort duty when proper warships are in short supply and high demand. What sets the Mon Cal cruisers apart from these real-world examples is that they are capable of going toe-to-toe with purpose built capital ships like ISDs. Portrayals vary on exactly how well they fare, but an MC80 is at least in the same weight class as an ISD, which is pretty impressive for an armed cruise ship.

Here in the real world, the record of armed merchant ships against actual warships is pretty dismal. I believe there are a few examples of them coming out on top (though the specifics elude me at the moment), but if I recall correctly those involved luck, surprise, and were against smaller warships. You’re not going to find examples of an upgunned cruise liner sinking a battleship, and little surprise: warships are universally going to be better armed, better protected, and faster than comparably sized civilian ships, even after military conversion. In the modern era, this will also extend to having more powerful sensors and other electronic systems.

Star Wars, for the most part, appears to follow this logic. There are exceptions, especially for modified smuggling ships like the Millennium Falcon, but overall civilian ships are portrayed as slower and more vulnerable^1 than military ships. Facially, there’s no reason for Mon Cal cruisers to be any different – they are quite literally cruise ships. There’s no reason for them to be outfitted with military grade engines, shields, or reactors, all of which would be significantly more expensive than their civilian counterparts.

And yet the Rebel Alliance is able to convert them into full-fledged warships. Some of this is not too difficult to imagine. Adding armor or turbolaser mounts to the hull is relatively straightforward, and hangar bays may not require any refitting at all, depending on the base ship design. Engines and power plants, however, are a more serious problem, as they would require gutting the ship to replace^2 . This is likely to be difficult under the best of circumstances and functionally impossible outside of a dedicated shipyard. It also requires you to have military-grade engines and reactors to replace the civilian versions with.

This leads me to the theory that Mon Cal starships were always intended to be easily converted to warships. By building your ships with crucial, hard-to-retrofit components at military rather than civilian grade, you are able to quickly build out a fleet of capital ships in a relatively short time frame. You are also able to save on the cost (and scrutiny) that maintaining a fleet of dedicated capital ships as part of a system defense force would entail. While adding armament to the ships is probably not trivial, it is not nearly the lift that replacing core internal systems would be.

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Other thoughts:

1. The CIS (and before them, the Trade Federation) made significant use of militarized merchant ships, most prominently in the form of Lucrehulk-class ships. However, it should be noted that even the ‘civilian’ Lucrehulk is already well-armed and Lucrehulks are massive. While they can slug it out dedicated capital ships, this is less impressive when you consider that a Lucrehulk is an order of magnitude larger than Republic/Imperial capital ships. The massive amount of internal volume would make militarization more feasible even with fairly clumsy conversions.
2. While there are conflicted depictions of Mon Cal cruiser design, most agree that the main reactor is buried inside the ship.