Introduction
If you're reading this, you likely are already aware of the question being asked in the post title, and the various answers. If not, the problem comes from a line of dialogue from Florissax, Dragon Communion Priestess:
>Now, seek the jagged peak. There you will find Bayle, the oldest, and vilest, of all dragons.
The question arises from her characterization of Bayle: She calls him the oldest of all dragons. But, much of the game has painted the timeline as the Ancient Dragons pre-existing the "modern" Dragons (which I will be referring to as Drakes for distinction). In other words, she is (potentially) upending one understanding of the timeline, revealing that at the very least, one Drake preceded the Ancient Dragons, if not Drakes in fact being older more broadly.
While I don't think this is widely accepted, it's certainly still a popular interpretation. So, then, how might we go about determining which of these two is "correct"?
This is my attempt to offer that solution: We will look at multiple aspects of the game: visual indicators, textual information, and how terms are used, trying to nail down what the best way is to interpret Florissax's dialogue.
To be upfront, I will say what my conclusion is at the outset: Florissax is using the word "dragon" here specifically in reference to Drakes, and we should not be revising the understanding of the base game's timeline for Ancient Dragons and Drakes based on her dialogue. I think most will probably agree to this conclusion, and many would likely say this is the obvious answer, but even still, I think it's worthwhile to dig in. (And I find it fun!)
To start with, we'll look at visual indicators, which many are already aware of, to illustrate the main classifications between Ancient Dragons and Wyverns. This will likely be redundant to anyone familiar with the lore, so feel free to skip ahead. There will also be a tl;dr at the end of the post.
Dragon Taxonomy
First, let's look at the basic characteristics differentiating our two classes of dragons:
The basic distinguishing feature is number of limbs: Ancient Dragons are quadrupedal and quadru...pteral? Four-winged. Drakes, then, are bipedal and two-winged. Additionally, drakes use their front two wings as front legs, while the four legs of Ancient Dragons don't require their wings to be anything but wings. And so we can take a look at Bayle to see how he compares:
Technically it should be \"Wings: Sorta - Legs: 1\"
So, obviously Bayle matches better the Drakes than the Ancient Dragons. In phase 2, he sprouts spectral wings while flying, but they overlap his broken wings, implying they represent something like a memory of his original wings. So, if he aligns with the Drakes taxonomy, what do we know about the Drakes?
Feeble Descendants
The way Drakes are treated in relation to the Ancient Dragons is, pretty unanimous:
>When the dragons were born from their ancient kin, they lost their stone scales, which can now be used to cause them mortal harm. - Dragonwound Grease
We are given the understanding that the Ancient Dragons are the ancestors of the modern Drakes, who no longer possess the stone scales characteristic of their progenitors. We get a similar idea from Dragon Greatclaw and Lightning Strike:
>The claw is enwreathed with lightning, and tears through the dragons' feeble descendants with ease. - Dragon Greatclaw
Ancestors of the modern dragons, the ancient dragons had scales of Gravel Stone and wielded lightning as their weapon. - Lightning Strike
So we have at least a basic idea of a timeline of Ancient Dragons -> Drakes. Additionally, for some reason, the Drakes have lost their scales, and a pair of both wings and legs.
Another important element of the Drakes is their hearts: The consumption of Drake hearts is the basis of Dragon Communion. And this is another thread that more directly ties Bayle to the Drakes:
>In a long time past, Bayle turned upon the Dragonlord. The foul traitor assailed our master and inflicted a grievous wound, only to make a hasty retreat. ...Becoming a sworn enemy of the Brood. Since that day, Bayle and his bloodline - the drakes - have served as sacrifices for Dragon Communion. - Florissax
According to Florissax herself, Dragon Communion started because of Bayle, and it targets his "bloodline," the drakes. Given the drakes elsewhere are treated as "descendants" of the Ancient Dragons, it seems weird to say that they're both descendants of the Ancient Dragons, and yet also Bayle's bloodline, if we treated her calling him the "oldest dragon" as referring to dragons in general. But to make this case a bit stronger, we're going to look at the way the terms "Ancient Dragon", "Dragon", and "Drake" are used to tie this together.
The Meaning of a Word is its Use in the Video Game
| Term | # of Appearances |
|---|---|
| Dragon (including Ancient Dragon) | 752 |
| Dragon (excluding Ancient Dragon) | 490 |
| Ancient Dragon | 262 |
| Drake | 79 |
The above table lists the number of times each term is used across both the base game and the DLC. The actual number for each is technically less for unique instances, given the reuse of descriptions for things like the +1 version of talismans or armor sets, but that doesn't really change our analysis.
As we can see, the term Dragon is used a lot, and around a third of those instances are the term "Ancient Dragon." It makes sense, of course, that "dragon" would apply to the class including them as a whole, but this assumption is actually a bit misguided. Of the times the game is referring to ancient dragons, there are actually very few where the term "dragon" alone is used to do so. These are the main times it happens:
>The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock. And so it is that the shape of the dragon has become symbolic of all manner of protections. - Various Dragoncrest/Elemental Drake Talismans
Superior incantation of the capital's ancient dragon cult. (...) Only those loved by dragons can survive the ordeal of cladding their bodies in lightning. - Dragonbolt Blessing
*Coats armament, granting anti-*dragon effects. - Dragonwound Grease
Prayerbook of the capital's ancient dragon cult. - Dragon Cult Prayerbook
A malformed golden [armor piece]. Adorned with various dragon imagery and worn by the misshapen Tree Sentinels. After the great ancient dragon Gransax attacked, the sentinels had an epiphany. The only way to truly protect the Erdtree was to become dragons themselves. - Malformed Dragon Set
Weapon said to have been whittled from the claw of a great, ancient dragon, wielded by grotesque Tree Sentinels who yet serve the Erdtree. - Dragon Greatclaw (Near identical language is present in Dragonclaw Shield)
Tower shield engraved with a dragon, symbol of protection. Heavy even among greatshields, it possesses exceptional guarding ability. The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock. - Dragon Towershield
Calls down the red lightning of the ancient dragons to strike a target. - Flower Dragonbolt
Said to have been a favored tool of the dragon-cult knights who once served the prince of gold. - Dragonbolt Grease
Special incantation of the ancient dragon Florissax. - Dragonbolt of Florissax
This is about 10 unique instances, and would likely be around 40 (if we're being generous) times when including the repeats for identical descriptions. There are also ones I wasn't sure whether to include, specifically Thiollier talking about "oldest of dragons" and occasional times where Florissax refers to us being or becoming a dragon. Including those, we'll bump up the estimate to 50 to keep in the giving mood. In other words, being generous, that's about 19% of the references to Ancient Dragons using only the term dragon. Ancient Dragons are almost always referred to as Ancient Dragons solely, and even when they aren't, the term "Ancient Dragon" is always floating nearby to specify that "dragon" is referring to them.
In contrast, Dragon is quite often used as a generic term for Drakes, and even used so when directly comparing them to Ancient Dragons. For example:
>When the dragons were born from their ancient kin, they lost their stone scales, which can now be used to cause them mortal harm. - Dragonwound Grease
Here, we have the the Drakes specifically being set in contrast to their ancestors, yet being referred to as flatly "dragons". Dragon Communion partakers are referred to as having "hunted dragons". Dragon Communion itself is told to us as specifically seeking out drakes as targets, yet is called Dragon Communion, and it's incantations almost unanimously describe our character transforming into simply a dragon to spew whatever breath attack.
If anything, it seems the term "dragon" is used in the game to refer to Drakes specifically, but can refer to Ancient Dragons or all dragons more broadly in specific contexts. However, for the sake of both fairness and completeness, before concluding with this analysis, I will raise one specific point that could be a problem for interpreting Florissax as saying Bayle is merely the oldest Drake, and not the oldest Dragon overall.
Lost in Translation
Interestingly, while the term "Drake" is most often simply translating the Japanese word 竜(ryuu, i.e. dragon), there is actually a term that sometimes gets used in Japanese to specifically refer to Drakes in contrast to Ancient Dragons. 飛竜(hiryuu) literally means "flying dragon", but is often used in fantasy to refer specifically to wyvern-like creatures (Monster Hunter, for example, uses the term.) This is the same for Elden Ring: "Flying Dragon Agheel/Greyll" uses the term, but the word "dragon" in "Grafted Dragon" is 飛竜 both in the item's name and its description. It's the term for the Jagged Peak Drake. But most importantly, it's in this dialogue:
>Since that day, Bayle and his bloodline—the drakes— have served as sacrifices for Dragon Communion.
-
以来ベールと、彼の一族…飛竜たちは、竜餐の贄となったのです
So, here we can see that Florissax herself uses the term 飛竜 to refer to the drakes as a specific group. But if we compare her line about Bayle to this line, that's where the questions come in:
>There you will find Bayle, the oldest, and vilest, of all dragons.
-
最も古く、凶なる竜…、ベールがそこにおります
Here, she simply refers to Bayle as 竜, i.e. a dragon. Wouldn't it then, be better for her to say 最も古く、凶なる飛竜 if we were to interpret her dialogue as being about Drakes specifically?
Personally, while I'm sympathetic to this, I think the evidence for everything else simply means the way Elden Ring uses 竜/dragon isn't so clear cut as "dragons" as a class. We've already gone over how "dragon" regularly is used to refer specifically to Drakes. And while 飛竜 is used, it is still a rare term: The examples I gave of its use are exhaustive, save a single unused name for a "Drake Graveyard" site of grace in SotE. Yet we have dozens if not hundreds of times where the word "Dragon" or 竜 is specifically used in reference to Drakes. Returning to Dragonwound Grease is an excellent example:
>When the dragons were born from their ancient kin, they lost their stone scales, which can now be used to cause them mortal harm.
-
竜は、古竜より生じたとき、岩のウロコを失った それこそが、竜に致命の傷を与えるという
The first part specifically says the dragons(竜) were born from the ancient dragons(古竜), so we can see that in both English and Japanese, "dragon" is a term that can (and most often does) refer to that class of dragons descended from Ancient Dragons, which we've been calling Drakes. So, I think that while Florissax's use of 飛竜 does undermine interpreting her use of "dragon" for Bayle to mean "drake", I think the context determines it as such even so. So let's summarize that context:
Conlusion/tl;dr
The term "Dragon" in Elden Ring has multiple uses/meanings, but when appearing by itself, most commonly refers to specifically Drakes. With that understanding, what does the context tell us? Well, let's bring in our examples from the previous anaylsis: Bayle's design, having two legs and two wings, aligns with the design of the Drakes. Bayle's bloodline is stated by Florissax to be the Drakes, and his actions are why they are targetted for Dragon Communion. Finally, we are told that Drakes are the descendants of the Ancient Dragons. To add to this, we even have a line of dialogue where Florissax references youth in relation to Bayle, when discussing Igon:
>I remember that name well. The broken drake warrior. Driven by bottomless hunger and fiery ambition. Precisely what the Dragonlord envisaged for men who partake in Dragon Communion. The mad hunger and fierceness of spirit that only flows from those young and short of sight. He rather reminds me of Bayle, in fact. Such thoughts are unfathomable to ones as old as we. - Florissax
Here, she specifies that Igon's hunger and ferocity only flow from his being young and short of sight. She then compares that to Bayle. She then says those thoughts are unfathomable to ones as old as her (and presumably the other Ancient Dragons being the referents for "we"). As such, she seems to be calling Bayle's thoughts not only those that exist for those who are young, but contrasting them as impossible for ones as old as the Ancient Dragons.
Given all of this, I think it's hard to argue that she is saying that Bayle somehow predates the Ancient Dragons. She describes his emotions as immature, says his bloodline are the Drakes, and the game in essentially every other source of information says the Drakes are the progeny of the Ancient Dragons. Context seems to ask us to interpret the word "Dragon" the way Dragon by itself most commonly is used: to refer to Drakes. In other words, he is not the oldest Dragon, including the Ancient Dragons. He is the oldest Drake, the descendants of the Ancient Dragon.
Afterward
This is a pretty long post, and covers something I'm sure many feel is obvious, one way or the other. Still, I enjoyed writing it and trying to present the best argument for what I believe is the correct interpretation. I hope you enjoyed reading it if you took the time to, and I would love to know what others think.