r/voynich

f2r second half of page translation, expanding skeletonized Italian

f2r second half of page translation, expanding skeletonized Italian

https://preview.redd.it/hihderanpu0h1.png?width=2691&format=png&auto=webp&s=233deb41f71ad25d8ed050251aa4b8e4dd4d773d

The Voynich Manuscript is Skeletonized Italian.

I bring receipts:

* The above Image of page f2r with fill translation. The image text remains in Italian purely from respect. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TiNOqfCC19sBIewHjyNyKnV9uvrbO4Gx/

The first half and the second half are presented here.

# page 3
# herbal
# Currier's language A, hand 1
# Plant ID: Cyanus segelis coeruleus (Kornblume), centaurea (cf. Holm)
# Two paragraphs, top one cut in many places. 1 label near plant leaf
#
<f2r.1>       <%>tlabma apcoi bam olcai<->apcam ctloisa
<f2r.2>       borcora ctlar s<->ator cha {cho}
<f2r.3>       volam chea a<->cor ca aba<->cam
<f2r.4>       atmba clob ba<->cpa bais<->cotlam b
<f2r.5>       olocor ai<->atobam<->coibn<->alcam bn
<f2r.6>       sam banb<->btloi sor<->aloiba<->bcoi bca cha
<f2r.7>       ator cha bama<->coibn<$>

Italian: 

  1. tlabma(tinctura-lac-balsam-am) apcoi(ab-pocai) bam(balsam) olcai(oliato-calci) apcam(acqua-per-chale-am) ctloisa(con-tinctura-lotura-fissa)
  2. borcor(bor-core) ctlar(con-tinctura-lac-aqua-radice) s(sive) ator(a-torre) cha(chale) cho 
  3. vola m(mercurio) che a(ad) cor(core) ca(cale) a(ab) ba(balsam) cam(camera)
  4. atmba(ab-tincture-mercurio-balsam) col(with) b(bene) ba(balsam) cap(capo) basi(base) colta(colmata) m(mercurio) b(bene)
  5. olocor(olio-core) ai atoamb(ad tomba) coibn(coniuncti-bene) alcam(allembicum) be(bene).
  6. sam(sale) ba(balsam) nb(ab) bolit(bolita) sor(ros-colore) aloiba bcoi(bene-coniuncti) bca(mouth) cha(chale)
  7. ator(a-torre) cha(chale) bama(balsam-am) coin(coniuncti-bene)

English:

  1. The milky balsam body and the binding water are in the caustic oil; decant the heated water from the stable, washed tincture.
  2. The heart of the borax with a tincture of milk, water, and root, or rather heated here in the furnace tower.
  3. The mercury flies from that which is at the heart of the heat, from the balsam chamber
  4. From the mercury-balsam tincture, heat the balsam well through the head and base until it is well-settled.
  5. With the golden essence at the tomb [vessel base], the fusion is well-joined.
  6. The oil-essence is well-joined at the base of the vessel; the alembic is well-prepared.
  7. Heat the balsam at the furnace tower until it is firmly fused.

The second half of page f2r completes the processing of the cornflower plant to extract an intense and long-lasting blue dye.

&lt;f2r.8&gt;       &lt;%&gt;tlabm atam voa s atoi lobn atlat oiateea baniba 
&lt;f2r.9&gt;       bisato tloi ateea votlea atloba so atoi atla bm banroi
&lt;f2r.10&gt;      volta coiam atoi atctla bam chea tleoi sam ŝam
&lt;f2r.11&gt;      acm baica baior atn bn oisam ateea ctlor
&lt;f2r.12&gt;      otloi ca cor chor aor n cn sam cela catla {-c}ai
&lt;f2r.13&gt;      ato otleea cea bam ccha&lt;$&gt;
&lt;f2r.14&gt;      alonic
&lt;f2r.15&gt;      rosanan

Italian:

  1. tlabm(tinctura-lac-balsam-mercurio) atam(acqua-tinctura-am) voa(vola) s(sive) atoi(a-torre) lobn(lotura-bene) atlat(acqua-tinctura-lat) oiateea(oliato-ea) baniba(balsam within balsam)

  2. bisato(bis-oliato) tloi(tinctura-olio) ateea(a-terra) votlea(vota-le) atloba(al-tomba) so(sotto) atoi(a-torre) atla(acqua-tinctura-lat) bm(balsam-mercurio) banroi(balsam-roto-in)

  3. volta(volata) coiam(coniuncti-am) iato(a-torre) atctla(acqua-tinctura-lac) bam(balsam) chea(chale) tleoi(tinctura-oleo) sam(sale) ŝam(summam)

  4. acm(acqua-coelum-mercurio) biaca(balsam-in-caustica) baior(balsam-in-olio-re) atn(a-torre-non) bn(bene) oisam(oliato-sale-am) ateea(a-terra) ctlor(con-tinctura-lac-oro)

  5. otloi(olio-tincture) ca(chale) cor(core) chor(color) aor(auro) n(non) cn(con) sam(sale) cela(cerea) catla(acqua-tinctura-lac) {-c}ai(concentrata-ai)

  6. ato(at-oleo) otleea(oliato-ea) cea(crea) bam(balsam) ccha(con-chale)

  7. alonic(alume-onice)

  8. rosanan(rosa-an-annata)

English:

  1. The milky balsam-tincture is in a liquid state; let it volatilize, or rather wash it well at the furnace with the milky water-tincture, then anoint it with double-distilled balsam.

  2. TTwice-oil the oil-tincture while cooling; the vapors return to the base beneath the tower, where the milky water-tincture is joined within the dark mercury-balsam.

  3. The joined matter has sublimated at the tower; heat the balsam and oil-tincture with the milky water, then add the final saturating amount of salt.

  4. Use the distilled mercurial water with the caustic balsam and the rectified oil-balsam. Without using the tower furnace, thoroughly combine the oiled salt-body until it settles, resulting in the golden-lake tincture.

  5. The oil-tincture is hot; the heart of the golden color is not (formed) until concentrated with salt and the waxy milky-water.

  6. Bring it to the oiled state; create the balsam body by heating the anointed substance.

  7. Alonic identifies the mordant (the substance used to set the dye) or the nature of the plant extract itself.

  8. By writing "rosanan" on the leaf, the scribe is likely noting that this specific leaf provides a natural red tint. In the blue-making process a small amount of "rose" or red was often added to the blue (mercury/indigo) to create a more vibrant, "Royal" violet-blue.

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u/pmw57 — 1 day ago
▲ 2 r/voynich+1 crossposts

it's anagramed Italian

Page f99r was my rosetta stone into this thing. It's anagramed Italian. My initial paper about it is up at https://zenodo.org/records/20109175

An example from page f2r top half: Transliterated text using Edith Sherwood's AVA alphabet. AVA => anagram => Italian

&lt;f2r.1&gt; &lt;%&gt;labma apcoi bam olcai apcain ctloisa
alba m(mercurio) capo i(in) amb(alembic) colai pacam(pacatam) ctliosa(calcinosa)
Place the white mercury in the head of the alembic; I strained the pacified matter into the caustic-lime mixture.

&lt;f2r.2&gt; borcora ctlar s&lt;-&gt;ator cha {cho}
bor cor(cora) ctlar(con tinctura lac aqua radice) s(sive) ator(a torre) cha(chale) cho
The heart of the borax with a tincture of milk, water, and root, or rather heated here in the furnace tower.

&lt;f2r.3&gt; volam chea a cor ca aba cam
vola m(mercurio) a(ab) che a(ad) cor(core) ca(cale) a(ab) ba(balsam) cam(camera)
The mercury flies from that which is at the heart of the heat, from the balsam chamber.

&lt;f2r.4&gt; atmba clob ba cpa bais cotlam b
atmba(ab tincture mercurio balsam) cho(chale) b(bene) ba(balsam) cap(capo) basi(base) colta(colmata) m(mercurio) b(bene)
From the mercury-balsam tincture, heat the balsam well through the head and base until it is well-settled.

&lt;f2r.5&gt; olocor ai atobam coibn alcam bn
col oro ai atoamb(ad tomba) coni(coniuncti) b(bene) macla be(bene)
With the golden essence at the tomb [vessel base], the fusion is well-joined.

&lt;f2r.6&gt; sam banb&lt;-&gt;btloi sor aloiba bcoi bca cha
sam(sale) ba(balsam) nb(ab) bolit(bolita) sor(ros-colore) aloiba bcoi(bene-coniuncti) bca(mouth) cha(chale)
Let the rose-colored extract of the balsam salt boil; it is well-joined in the alembic and heated at the opening.

&lt;f2r.7&gt; ator cha bama coibn&lt;$&gt;
ator . hac . amb(alembic) a(ab) . coni b(bene)
Heat the balsam at the tower until it is well-joined.

Smoothed out as English: Place the purified white mercury into the head of the alembic; I then poured the stabilized matter into the caustic-lime mixture. Add the essence of the borax along with a tincture of milk, water, and root—or rather, heat it here in the furnace tower.

The mercury then volatilizes from the center of the heat, moving from the balsam chamber. From this mercury-balsam tincture, heat the mixture thoroughly through the head and base of the vessel until the mercury is well-settled.

With the golden essence now at the base of the vessel, the fusion is successfully joined into a solid mass. Finally, let the rose-colored extract from the balsam salt boil; it is well-joined within the alembic when heated at the mouth. Apply a steady heat at the furnace tower until the balsam is perfectly fused."

reddit.com
u/pmw57 — 2 days ago

Sorry if this is a dumb question

I’m not a Scientist or a Historian, but I was wondering if anyone has tried to apply AI to the Voynich Manuscript yet?

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u/Old-Beautiful-3971 — 5 days ago

The Voynich Manuscript wtf am I looking at and why are the theories behind it so boring.

Look, I’ve been looking at these images and all the scientist talk about "womans health" or "alchemy" is BS. It doesn't look like that at all.

Look at the over 100 pages of plants. They look way too alive to me.... and with how detailed it is to me it's definitely no ordinary alchemy book.

like some of these planta look likw godam poison ivy goons type shit.

They look aggressive and weirdly alive, like they weren't grown in a regular garden.

Now my weird thoughts (laugh if you want I don't blame you if you tell me I am delusional)

The Tubes are plants, Everyone says the women are just "showering" or "bathing." No. Look at the tubes—they look like disgusting, squishy parasites or bacteria from movies and they talk about plants over 100 pages why now have alive looking tubes out of nowhere???

And I can't tell if even the stuff there showering in is even water with how weird it looks it almost like... sperm lol and I don't mean human speem ovbiously but plant ish sperm life juice??? If that is even possible?

I mean look at the blue stuff she is blushing for fucks sake? Blushing... you don't just blush while taking a usal bath do you???? And there sticking these hands into the tubes ish thing while doing so... you seen a shower where you can do that???? Literally go inside the shower head?

Just looking at the images of course... because sire you can use ai and try to uncover the scripts but we have clues with the pictures that are set in stone, how you interpret them is your own choice, tbf I don't blame you if you think I am high asf and are laughing your ass of but yeeeeeeeeee lol

u/Odd-Plenty9367 — 6 days ago

The Voynich transcription

A scribe imagined, transcribing lines from Dante's \"La Divina Commedia2.

Here is an example of how I imagine the transcription of a medieval document, which resulted in the book that we now know as the Voynich manuscript.

Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that:

  • a scribe receives Canto 1 of Dante Alighieri's La Divina Commedia, with instructions to transcribe it to the symbols that we now call Voynich glyphs;
  • the principal glyphs are defined as Glen Claston will define them six hundred years later, with the exception that the symbol that Claston will call {4o} is not two glyphs but one;
  • the Italian words are written in full, without the abbreviations and concatenations of the Foligno edition;
  • the producer has prescribed a one-to-one mapping of Latin letters to glyphs, either not knowing or not caring that this mapping will preserve the frequencies of the Latin letters;
  • it follows, with some confidence, that each Latin letter maps approximately to the equally ranked glyph; for example e to {o}, a to {9}, i to {a}, and so on.

In this scenario, the scribe examines the first line of Canto 1, which consists of seven words:

>nel mezo del camin di nostra uita

and following the mapping that the producer has laid down, he writes the rough transcription as shown below:

https://preview.redd.it/7j7o3pbgug0h1.png?width=806&format=png&auto=webp&s=6559a4035dc2dcc795c0fc2d7add6925c373f00a

He then refers to the producer’s “slot alphabet” for the correct order in which the glyphs must be written. We do not know whether this alphabet was simple or complex; nor whether it was rigid or flexible. We might guess that it embodied rules of the following nature:

  • If the "word" contains the glyph {4o}, write that glyph in the leftmost position.
  • If the "word" contains the glyph {m}, write that glyph in the rightmost position.
  • If the "word" contains the glyph {9}, write that glyph in the rightmost position.
  • The glyphs {c} and {C} can be to the right of, but not to the left of, the glyphs {h} and {k}.

The scribe's clean copy, which he writes on the vellum, is as shown below:

https://preview.redd.it/vqegga4kug0h1.png?width=806&format=png&auto=webp&s=05894d2f506245dd69db7e37a626c85d99c96db9

Five of these seven “words” are real “words” in the Voynich manuscript; and the other two "words" differ by only one glyph from real Voynich "words".

In practice, we have no reason to believe that the source documents included La Divina Commedia, or even that they were in medieval Italian. My working assumption is that they were in languages that were spoken and written in Europe in the fifteenth century.

However, this exercise demonstrates that a one-to-one mapping of letters to glyphs, coupled with some kind of re-ordering process, can replicate real Voynich "words".

I think that the way forward is to try many candidate languages, and many alternative transliterations of the Voynich manuscript, with all the permutations that this will involve. This is not a manual task; it will necessarily be a massive computational approach. It was just such an approach that cracked the Zodiac cipher.

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u/Technical_Bar6829 — 3 days ago
▲ 11 r/voynich

what if it’s a procedural grammar instead of a natural language?

I’ve been playing with the idea that the Voynich manuscript might not be a natural language at all, but something closer to a procedural system — basically a compact grammar that generates instruction-like tokens instead of sentences with meaning in the usual sense.

This is not a claim that I’ve “decoded” anything. It’s just an attempt to model the structure and see if it behaves like a system that produces consistent outputs.

What pushed me in this direction is how regular the EVA text looks at the string level. There’s a lot of repetition, small variations between words, and patterns that look almost like prefixes and suffixes (qo…, …dy, …iin, …aiin). It doesn’t feel like normal language variation — it feels more like something rule-based.

So I tried to formalize that with a simple grammar. It’s basically a small set of building blocks (prefix-like elements, repeated vowel groups, and common endings), plus some connectors. When you run it over EVA, it actually covers a large part of the text structure — roughly most of the recurring patterns and a big chunk of the tokens.

Then, just as a way to test whether this structure can produce something coherent, I projected it into a procedural domain — in this case fermentation, mostly because it has very clear step-by-step processes.

For example, take a line like:

qokeedy qokedy chedy daiin

You can segment it pretty mechanically:

  • qo + k + ee + dy
  • qo + k + e + dy
  • ch + e + dy
  • p + aiin (after normalizing d → p)

If you force it into something concrete (again, just as a test, not a claim), it looks like a simple process workflow. For instance, in a fermentation-like setup: prepare a base liquid, add something, repeat, introduce the main ingredient, then let it run for a longer phase.

After clustering the "words" in order to detect patterns, analysing syntax, and testing a lot of regular expressions, the language grammar looks like this:

S → W | W S

W → CORE | CORE C W

CORE → P BLOCK T | P BLOCK | BLOCK T | BLOCK

P → qo | q | o

BLOCK → UNIT | UNIT BLOCK

UNIT → M | B | G | V

M → k | t | p | f B → ch | sh G → cth | ckh | cph | cfh

V → e | ee | eee | i | ii | iii | a | ai | aiin

T → dy | iin | aiin | ε

C → l | r | n | s | m

So the working assumptions are:

  • the text might encode processes rather than narrative
  • repeated vowel groups could be acting as levels or modifiers
  • the system might be domain-agnostic (fermentation is just a convenient test case)
  • and possibly each page represents variations around a main element (suggested by the drawings)

When I tested the grammar against EVA text, it actually covered a large portion of what’s going on structurally. Roughly speaking, it can generate around 85–90% of the tokens and over 95% of the recurring patterns, even though it only captures about 65–80% of the distinct word forms. So it’s definitely not modeling the full vocabulary, but it does seem to capture most of the repetitive structure of the manuscript, which is the part that feels least like a natural language.

Using a fermetation domain to "decode" terminals:

Action / ingredient markers qo = liquid base / must / water q = general base marker o = mix / transfer / continuity k = sugars / fermentables t = heat / cooking p = yeast / fermentation start ch = main plant (always substituted with a safe edible plant) sh = secondary herb (safe edible) f = aroma modifier cth, ckh, cph, cfh = complex herbal compound (safe blend) Connectors (low semantic weight, used as transitions):

l, r, n, s, m State / time markers We treat the first vowel-run found in a word as an intensity/state cue:

e… = active extraction i… = cooling/rest a… = fermentation start/transition Run length encodes level:

e / i / a = level 1 ee / ii = level 2 eee / iii = level 3 Suffixes:

dy = interpret the vowel-run length as days iin = medium fermentation phase (heuristic) aiin = long fermentation/aging phase (heuristic)

So a recipe like this :

qokeedy qokedy chedy daiin

Translates:

"Start by preparing a liquid base and adding a fermentable component, letting it sit in an active phase for two days. Repeat the same step at a lower intensity for one additional day. Then introduce the main ingredient from the mixture and allow it to infuse for a day. Finally, begin the fermentation process and let it continue through a longer resting phase."

Treating each line as one recipe yields 5,385 distinct “recipes” across the manuscript in this dataset; 1,065 come out as coherent (internally consistent enough to map cleanly onto a plausible fermentation/drink-making workflow), while 4,320 are “partial” (they still parse, but the model lacks strong anchors—most often the page’s plant category is unknown/low-confidence—so timings/ingredients are more inferential).

I’m curious whether this aligns with other “non-language” ideas people have explored (automata, encodings, etc.), or if this just collapses into overfitting.

If anyone’s interested, I put a small repo together with the grammar and a toy interpreter:
https://github.com/jfrez/voynich-manuscript-translator

Happy to hear thoughts, especially on whether this kind of structural model makes sense or if I’m missing something obvious.

u/jfrez — 8 days ago