r/shoujokakumeiutena

I haven't seen anyone talk about why fencing specifically. So what is the relevance?

Hello, back again with some more questions after finishing Adolescence of Utena, which left me with even more questions haha. Would appreciate if anyone can explain in great detail to my questions, regardless of whether you believe it is a sequel or just an alternate take (I welcome all perspectives and answers).

1. so the biggest thing that confuses me is Touga. Why is Touga in the position of the drowned boy from Jury’s story from the TV series? Why is he Utena’s ex-boyfriend and prince? What does this say about the patriarchal themes, for Utena to say to Touga he really is her prince? Touga in the movie’s backstory still was a two-timer and this is a story about deconstructing the concept of princes (“Killing the Prince” as some say), that they don’t exist, yet in this case, a prince did exist for Utena, he just died.
2. Relates to the first question, but why is Touga dead in this world? Why is Akio dead from the start? Utena says in the end “together we killed the prince”, does she mean metaphorically? Also, what does the movie want to say about Dios? Dios appears briefly when Utena duels Juri, but beyond that, isn’t seen or acknowledged again.

From the sequel interpretation, I’ve seen some people say “Touga is too far gone, he was just like Akio, so he’s dead”, but why is he dead? And personally, I don’t think Touga was at all far gone from the TV series, he began to respect Utena for her values and he ultimately didn't follow in Akio’s example, yet he was deprived of a conclusion that the other characters received in graduating from the academy? Even Saionji, who was worse off, graduates. I’ve seen another interpretation say, “Touga does the first noble thing in his life and dies for Utena with a pure heart, truly becoming her prince”, but why does he need to do that.

3. on the Touga dead topic (as you can see I’m very confused), how did Shiori see him? I figured it was cuz she was knowledgable of his drowning just as Juri also knew his name, compared to Miki who didn’t. But I’ve seen some people say Shiori is also dead, yet that doesn’t really make sense to me?

4. Can someone break down Touga’s psychology to me with context to his backstory revealed in the movie? Afaik, though the movie is an alternate take, the backstory is canon to the TV series and lead to the formation of his current character. So would someone explain to me why being SA’d as a child by his adoptive father made him such a womanizer? Yet at the same time, how do women truly feel to him, if he envisioned Shiori as a moth preying on him?

5. What do the moths/butterflies symbolize in this film? As well as the Shiori bed sheets sequence? And most of all, what does the straw dolls with all the students uniforms at the very end of the movie mean?

6. How do you all view this world within the movie? I’ve seen people say it’s just purely an alternate reality without any bearing to the tv series but represented psydelicalluk a different reality Utena from the TV series walks into with Anthy following her and all the characters are different (and that the world is made of Utena’s memories), I’ve seen people say the characters are the same people from the TV series, I’ve seen people say it’s Anthy’s bubble world, I’ve seen interpretations that it’s some dreamlike world.

7. this is an overarching question about the series, but how do you view the series in terms of coming of age stories? What does it mean to suggest about Utena and Anthy as opposed to those in the academy and what Akio represents? Do you think the series is hopeful and idealistic about dreams or is it just an illusion like Akio’s projector?

I had this discussion with a friend recently and was curious to know if anyone else thinks like this.

I think in the movie they had, or at least started it in some way; in the scene where they are painting themselves, I believe they started it, but Utena stopped when she realized *how* the princes (and Akio) were sexually harassing Anthy after they got engaged. Utena knew what they were doing to Anthy, but realized that Anthy was being coerced into consenting (specially towards Akio, but it's implied with Touga as well) and even though she herself was consensually doing it with Anthy at that moment, she stopped it because she felt sick doing it.

My friend thinks it's implied that they had sex at some point during the anime run because of the visuals in the second ending, especially the last three episodes of the anime—we both agree that they are having sex in the second ending, but I think it's a visual liberty that doesn't directly reflect the events of the anime. My friend, however, thinks it happened right after Anthy's suicide attempt.

I think they canonically have had sex at some point in the whole thing (even in official artwork where it's more clearly shown), but not necessarily in the anime.

Thoughts?

But im not sure Ikuhara will allow or do it.

SKU hits so much differently after the big Epstein-class reveal and the post-George Floyd world. Yeah Akio is still the bad guy within the story, but it's also too obvious now that he and Anthy were bought as children to be brought to a foreign land and tortured for the entertainment of the ultra-wealthy people who call the shots outside Ohtori.

Now when I see that last scene with Akio getting the next set of letters ready, that shock in his face when Anthy leaves isn't as much about his game being over, it's that he knows the rich and powerful are probably going to kill him off now that he's outlived his usefulness.

Another thing that stands out now is how Touga was supposed to be the sacrifice, but it became Utena, and what do they both have in common? Orphans. So the whole thing was set up in a way that the bloodline rich kids of the student council were never at risk.

How many orphans have those families had killed off to teach their kids the lesson of what happens to people who are not heartless and powerful? These rituals are presented as something that has been going on in the series for generations, and it's too close to reality. Akio is presented as an immortal from the perspective of the audience, but in all likelihood he's just one boy/man in a long succession of Himalayan kids the aristocrats outside SKU have been enslaving since practically forever.

It's all so messed up.

From the opening page of the old school webshrine that got me seeing the series along these lines:

>
 That's right. A shrine to a character that spends about a minute and a half on screen. In a show like Shoujo Kakumei Utena, it's hard to write off even the minor characters as insignificant, and you certainly can't do so with Mrs.Ohtori. 

In her one brief scene, Mrs.Ohtori gives us a glimpse of the ugly adult world that surrounds Ohtori Academy; something we tend to forget exists in a series that centers around the teenagers in the school. Her character exemplifies sex at its absolute worst, turning her back on a sick husband and an unhappy daughter to seek out her adulterous affair with a younger man engaged to her own child. What you'll find here is my little site for a character with very little screen time and very little moral restraint. Continue on, and thank the heavens this isn't your mother, and that you aren't engaged to the man she pursues. 

I've been seeing this sentence a lot on tiktok and it seems that people didn't get what was going on during the show. Like, you literally have a man playing the Rose Bride during the Black Rose Arc and it's implied that Akio made the boys go through the same things he did to Anthy and Utena. The movie takes it even further and explicitly shows it. And plotwise, if the Rose Bride's purpose is to take the burden instead of the Prince, isn't the Prince also a Rose Bride, since he also sacrificed himself for the sake of the world? I think people try to overly simplify that quote from anthy about all girls being rose brides as if she were a reliable narrator.