r/Dravidiology

Image 1 — Why do some groups try to associate themselves with South Indian dynasties? And why is there so little awareness in the South about the Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas? What should South Indians do against this epidemic of heritage-stealing?
Image 2 — Why do some groups try to associate themselves with South Indian dynasties? And why is there so little awareness in the South about the Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas? What should South Indians do against this epidemic of heritage-stealing?

Why do some groups try to associate themselves with South Indian dynasties? And why is there so little awareness in the South about the Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas? What should South Indians do against this epidemic of heritage-stealing?

Today I came across a tweet where the admin is claiming both Kannada and Telugu dynasties—like the Rashtrakutas and the Chalukyas (Vengi, Kalyani, Badami)—as belonging to their own community. I’m genuinely worried about how shallow their historical knowledge is, and how unwilling they are to accept that they are wrong.

u/PrestigiousBet1406 — 5 hours ago
▲ 7 r/Dravidiology+1 crossposts

On the Jaina Origins of the Tamil Sangam Epic Silappathikaram

An Interesting Remark and a Story of Origins

Statue of Kannagi, Heroine of the epic Silppathikaram, at the Madras High Court

As the Tamil Sangam corpus was being brought back to the wider public consciousness in the course of the 19th century, thanks to the efforts of scholars like UV Swaminathan Iyer and CW Thamotharampillai, the Tamil Saiva reviver from Jaffna (Yazhpanam) Arumuga Navalar had this curious remark to make about the Sangam epic Silappathikaram as noted by the historian AR Venkatachalapathy:

Excerpt from Venkatachalapthy's work \"In Those Days There was No Coffee\"

This rather dismissive remark highlights the important role Sramana traditions like Jainism and Buddhism played in the development of the Sangam corpus of Tamilakam. The work is traditionally attributed to Ilango Adigal, a junior prince of the Cera dynasty.

Sculpture depicting Ilango Adigal from Poompuhar, the premier port on the eastern shores of Tamilakam

The historian MGS Narayanan writes of what the historical record tells us about the author and his likely connection to Jainism:

>According to the Patikam he was a resident of Kunavayir kottam, probably the vihara of Kunavay. This place has been rightly identified by scholars as Tirukkunavay or Trikkana Matilakam, now known as Matilakam, 8 miles to the north of Cranganore [Kodungallur]. The existence of a great Jain temple, the rules of which provided the model and precedent for other Jain temples in Kerala during the Céra period, is revealed by a number of inscriptions.

Kunavay is now widely believed to part of the archaeological site of Mathilakam near Kodungallur in Kerala, which lies along the banks of the Periyar river and is believed to be near the site of the ancient Muziris port on the western shores of Tamilakam as well as being the site of the site of Makotai, the Chera capital. Furthermore, the town is also home to Kodungaloor Bhagavathi temple which has a long running traditional association with Kannagi, the heroine of the epic.

The Kodungallur Bhagavathi temple

Regarding the timeline where the Jain temple of Kunavay can be dated to, MGS looks at inscriptional evidence from other districts of Kerala mentioning the temple and highlighting its importance to Jain communities in the region:

>A record of Tiruvannür in the 8th year of king Rajaraja places the deity of Tiruvannur and its property under the protection of Arunurruvar of Ramavalanatu and asks them to protect the property as if it belonged to Tirukkunavay itself... A similar clause is found in the Alattur Jain temple inscription of about the 11th century. It is clearly stated in a newly discovered Talakkavu inscription that he who obstructed the routine expenses in the local temple shall be deemed as an offender against Tirukkunavay. Moreover, this record is dated in the 137th year of Tirukkunavay, showing thereby that the foundation of Tirukkunavay was considered an epoch-making event and its memory cherished and made the basis of an era by the Jains even in distant parts of Kerala. Thus we may conclude that the great Tirukkuņāvāy Jain temple near the Cēra capital supplied the model for Tiruvannur, Alathur and Talakkavu Jain temples, came to be founded some time at the close of the 7th or the beginning of 8th century, for the 137th year mentioned in Talakkavu record can be placed in the first half of the 9th century on palaeographical evidence.

Basis this, MGS goes onto speculate regarding the possible dating of the epic itself:

>This finding would suggest that writing of the Cilappatikaram can be traced back to the immediate pre-Makotai period, probably in the 8th century. Tirukkunavayu have achieved fame as a Jain centre in the course of one or two centuries.

This chronology of the early 8th century CE fits somewhat well with the assessment of the scholar of Tamil, Kamil Zvelebil who in the process of criticising the hitherto prevalent Gajabahu synchronism hypothesis to date the epic, notes:

>

>... if, as the text and a persistent tradition maintain, Centkuttuvan's younger brother, prince Ilanko, was the author of the poem, how to explain the striking differences between the language of the epic poem and that of the classical Tamil lyrics, which should be contemporaneous with the Cilappatikaram?

>How to account for the fact that the ideologies, beliefs, customs, manners, rites and cults, the entire social, religious and philosophical background of Cilappatikaram is strikingly different from the social, political and cultural world of the so-called Cankam poetry? The civilization portrayed in the epos reflects beyond any doubt a well-progressed synthesis of the pre-Aryan and the Aryan elements in all spheres of life and culture, thinking and social habits. Cilappatikararn quotes some didactic poems (e.g. Tirukkural 55 or Palamolinannuru 46)... On the other hand, Cilappatikaram, as we have it today, cannot have been composed before the 5th-6th Cent. A.D.

Narayanan further highlights the presence of Jainism in the region that may not be immediately apparent on the surface:

>No tangible relics of Jain worship have been found associated with Tirukkunavay, Talakkavu, Kinalur or Tiruvannur. The temples in the first three places are lost and the one found at Tiruvannur at present is a regular Siva temple. It could have originally been a Jain temple which came to be transformed later into a Hindu institution. There are several examples for such a transformation in Kerala. The Kokasandesam of the 15th century describes Tirukkunavay as a Siva temple but adds that Brahmins are not allowed to see the Lord of the temple. This is indeed a strange practice and could be explained by the fact that it was a Jain temple taken over by the Hindus at a later stage. In Kallil near Perumbavur, Paruvasséri near Peechi, and Chitral near Kulithura, the old Jain temples clearly identified as such by their sculpture have passed for Hindu temples for many centuries.

Indeed the Kallil temple near Perumbavur is still testament to this Jain legacy, where images of Jain figures have been repurposed to Hindu worship, where Padmavathi, the śāsana devī of Pārśvanātha is worshipped as Bhagavathi.

Image of Pārśvanātha from the Kallil Bhagavthi temple near Perumbavoor

All this is to say, the cultural melting pot that Muziris and its environs that saw in its shores the arrival of various religious traditions, be they Vedic, Sramana or Abrahamic, produced a literary effervescence, of which a major manifestation is the Silappathikaram.

Sources:

Open Access works are marked [OA]

MGS Narayanan, The Perumals of Kerala (1996) [OA]

Kamil Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan (1975) [OA]

MGS Narayanan, Cultural Symbiosis in Kerala (1972) [OA]

AR Venkatachalapathy, In Those Days There Was No Coffee (2006)

reddit.com
u/indian_kulcha — 1 hour ago

indian tamil vs SL tamil

why does SL tamil (Eelam dielects) sound more like Written tamil/tamil in medievel movies (ponniyan selvan, Baahubali) in a way but slightly evolved but indian dielects sound more "evolved" in a way????

reddit.com
u/Old_Agency7268 — 19 hours ago

How prevalent was Buddhism among the masses of South India between 300 BCE and 700 AD

During this period, Buddhism was probably the dominant cultural force in North India. It’s likely that a significant proportion of the population, perhaps even the majority were Buddhists. What about the south.

reddit.com
u/Secure_Pick_1496 — 19 hours ago

How does the Kannada Rashtrakuta origin theory of Kakatiyas stand when connected with their Rashtrakuta origin?

​

The Rashtrakuta origin and the suffix of Rashtrakuta in the early Kakatiya lineage along with Telugu gaining ground clearly only post the fall of Kalyani Chalukyas would also point to possibility of a Kannada Rashtrakuta origin.

While Telugu and Tamil origin is frequently discussed what is the sub opinion on this POV?

Source:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175182/page/n34/mode/1up

Precolonial India in Practice: Society, Region, and Identity in Medieval Andhra

Cynthia Talbot

u/RashtrakutaNexus_794 — 22 hours ago

Kozhuppu (கொழுப்பு)

The transition of the Tamil word Kozhuppu (கொழுப்பு) from a biological term for fat to a metaphor for arrogance is interesting. I suspect historical famines and the related socioeconomic conditions played a role in that. Do other Dravidian languages share this similarity?

reddit.com
u/Future2785 — 23 hours ago

Feminine charm in Medieval Kannada Culture

Medieval Kannada literature and inscriptions reveal a society with a deeply refined aesthetic sense, where beauty- especially feminine charm- was observed, described, and celebrated with striking sensitivity. These descriptions were confined in poetry and also were engraved in stone, showing how artistic expression permeated everyday cultural memory.

Women are portrayed with rich natural metaphors: the lustre of the body compared to water, arms to flowing waves, eyes to opening buds, and the smile to a blooming lotus. Hair is likened to clusters of bees, while the breasts are poetically compared to chakravāka birds—imagery that reflects both elegance and symbolic depth rooted in Indian aesthetic traditions.

At the same time, inscriptions give us vivid details about material culture and adornment. Wealthy women adorned themselves with pearl necklaces, diamond earrings, armlets, anklets, waistbands, and elaborate ornaments. A Sāntara princess is described wearing pearls across her chest and finely cut diamonds in her ears. Flowers like Ketaki were used to decorate the hair, especially among aristocratic women. Queens such as Lachchaladevi are depicted wearing crowns, while courtesans are described as richly ornamented with belts and jewelry accentuating the body.

Importantly, these records also note that dress and ornamentation varied by social status, indicating a structured yet expressive society. The aesthetic sensibility was not limited to women alone- men, too, participated in this culture of adornment, even wearing necklaces, reflecting a broader appreciation for beauty and refinement.

Taken together, these inscriptions and literary descriptions offer more than visual imagery-they reveal a civilization where nature, art, status, and sensuality were woven into a unified cultural language, giving us a rare and intimate glimpse into the aesthetic world of medieval Karnataka.

Pictures are from wikipedia: Chalukyas of Badami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalukya_dynasty

u/PrestigiousBet1406 — 10 hours ago
🔥 Hot ▲ 51 r/Dravidiology

[OC] Distribution of Brahui as a first, second, or third largest mother tongue by sub-district and district

Already posted the district map before, but added it for reference

u/FireUniverse1162 — 1 day ago

Medieval Boats of the Tamils in the Tuticorin (Thoothukudi) port, Tamil Nadu | AD 1656 -1665

The main image was drawn by the Dutch church minister Philippus Baldaeus between AD 1656 and 1665. It's found in the book "Description of the East Indian Countries of Malabar, Coromandel, Ceylon, etc. (in Dutch, 1671)".

Using the main image, the boat images were enlarged for enhanced visualization.

u/Popular-Variety2242 — 19 hours ago

Did Elamite Survive Until the Middle Ages? The Mystery of the Khuzi Language

Posting this video here because while it's not connected to the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis directly, but it challenges the argument that Elamite was present into the medieval Islamic period and is more generally related to the language. Don't know what implications of this for Dravidian studies are but I've seen discussion about Xuzī on this sub before so wanted to post it.

youtu.be
u/Background-Injury952 — 2 hours ago
▲ 9 r/Dravidiology+2 crossposts

Different between phonetics shwa deletion in marathi and marathi

Same ancestoral language vaidika samskrutam but not prakruta, same script yet different story

u/QuitSignificant6909 — 20 hours ago
🔥 Hot ▲ 93 r/Dravidiology

Spatio-temporal gap between IVC and Ancient tamilakam

There is a migration myth in Sangam literature which says the velirs migrated down south from Dwaraka. If by assuming they moved after the collapse of the ivc, and built stuff in the deep south, why are there no other older sites in the Deccan and Maharashtra? Why is TN an outlier in this regard?

u/Double-Vegetable-249 — 2 days ago

Medieval Tamilakam to Kerala: How 1,000 Years changed the shape of Malabar Battle-Axes

These drawings were based on various battle axes found in Vaishnava Sculptures in modern Kerala temples. Battle axes are called Parashu and Mazhu in Malayalam.

AI images are arranged in the following order:

  • Image 50: 13th Century
  • Image 51: 17th Century
  • Image 52: 18th Century
  • Image 49 & 53: 19th Century

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Diversity and Evolution of Attributes in Vaishnava Sculptures of Kerala**,** Prof. Preeta Nayar, Department of Archaeology, University of Kerala, Kariavattom Campus, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, India.

>....... This paper provides a comprehensive account of these attributes and assess the diversity of depiction among them. It further examines the evolutionary trends found in each category on the basis of their morphological features. The inferences drawn tend to converge to the conclusion that the general trend in morphological evolution of attributes over the centuries appears to be ‘from simple to complex’ as regards to the ayudhas and emblems, though there has been no systematic linear evolution in their depiction.

AI Images: Nane Chozhan, yarl.com

#weapons

u/Popular-Variety2242 — 2 days ago

Sreemoolavasam Vihara of Kerala, Submerged or Taken by the Sea?

Sreemoolavasam Vihara was a major Buddhist monastery in Kerala. We’re not talking about a small shrine here, this was a full-fledged monastic centre, a place where monks lived, studied, and functioned as part of wider trade and cultural networks. The frustrating part is, we know it existed and we know it was important, but we still don’t know exactly where it was. That’s what makes it one of the more interesting unsolved historical and archaeological mysteries in Kerala and India.

We have solid proof that it existed. The Paliyam Copper Plates, issued by Vikramaditya Varaguna of the Ay dynasty, mention Sreemoolavasam Vihara as an already established and important institution in the 9th century. So this wasn’t some minor local setup.

Then there’s the Mushika Vamsa Kavya, which talks about the same place from up north. It mentions a ruler protecting it from the sea and another visiting it. That doesn’t mean the Mushikas controlled it, it just shows the place was well known. The important bit here is the sea, which strongly suggests the vihara was on the coast and dealing with erosion.

Now look at what survives in central Kerala, especially the Onattukara side. You’ve got the broken but well-known Karumadi Kuttan, and more intact finds like the Buddha Statue from Kandiyoor, Mavelikara. Then there are places like Budhanoor, where even the name and local memory point back to Buddhists. These aren’t random one-off finds, they line up into a clear regional pattern.

Another thing to keep in mind is how these remains actually survive. They weren’t neatly preserved. Some images were broken, thrown into ponds or lakes, and only found again later. By that point, they had already lost their original context and got pulled into local religious practices differently.

And this isn’t unique to Kerala. In other parts of India too, older Buddhist sites were taken over, reinterpreted, and given new identities. So when something “disappears”, it doesn’t always mean it’s gone, it often means it’s been changed beyond easy recognition.

Put all of this together, inscriptions, literary references, and what we actually see on the ground, and a picture starts to form. Sreemoolavasam was very likely a major coastal Buddhist centre, and the Onattukara region looks like the inland zone connected to it.

That’s why the Ambalappuzha to Haripad coast becomes interesting. This stretch has seen major shoreline changes over time. If the vihara was somewhere along this coast, there’s a real chance that it’s either underwater now, buried, or sitting there in a completely altered form.

So maybe the problem isn’t that Sreemoolavasam is “lost” in the usual sense. It might be that we’re already looking at its remains, just in pieces, out of context, and partly erased by time and the sea.
___

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimulavasa_Vihara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushika_dynasty

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:The_Indian_Antiquary_Vol_1.pdf/181

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paliyam_copper_plates

https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.2175

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Kerala

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karumadi_Kuttan

https://www.madhyamam.com/kerala/local-news/alappuzha/chengannur/here-is-the-history-of-budhanoor-974178

reddit.com
u/theb00kmancometh — 1 day ago