u/zajazajazajazajaz

Okay, so I've been down a Lyonel Baratheon rabbit hole for the last few hours, but I think I've actually landed on a timeline that makes sense, and I need to throw it out there to see what you guys think.

The main issues that kept bugging me:

The Tourney at Storm's End: Baelor mentions he fought in a tourney at Storm's End 'nine years past' {from 209} to celebrate the birth of a grandson of the Lord Baratheon.

Ormund is called 'the heir', not 'the son': Ormund Baratheon is referred to as Lyonel's heir, but never explicitly as his son. I have wondered if Ormund was actually a nephew or cousin.

I think both of these can be explained by something pretty simple: Lyonel had a son who was born in around 200, said son fathered Ormund, and then died before the rebellion.

Here's how I think it shakes out:

The grandson of 200: That baby whose birth Baelor attended? That's Lyonel's son. Lyonel himself would have been a grown man at the time. Say, late twenties at Ashford in 209. That fits perfectly with how he's described and drawn.

Andal succession tradition: Daughters come before nephews. If Ormund was just a nephew, Lyonel's daughter, the one betrothed to Prince Duncan, would have been the heir presumptive, but the text treats Ormund as the clear successor who eventually marries Rhaelle. I think the cleanest explanation for this is that Lyonel's son {Ormund's father} was the original heir, he died, and Ormund inherited his claim.

Ormund's age: Rhaelle was born in around 229, they marry in 245, and Steffon pops out in 246. So Ormund had to be old enough to father a kid by 246, meaning he was born by at least 229, though probably earlier. A birth year around 225 makes him a contemporary of Jaehaerys II {born in 225}, which is a nice little parallel since Jaehaerys later makes Ormund his Hand.

Lyonel versus Dunk in 239: If Lyonel was born in around 179 or thereabouts, he's sixty when he faces Dunk in single combat. Dunk's about a decade younger. That's totally reasonable for two absolute units who've been swinging weapons their whole lives. Barristan was out there carving people up Harpies at sixty-plus.

My working timeline, just for fun:

179: Lyonel Baratheon is born.

200 AC: Lyonel's first sonis born. Big tourney at Storm's End. Baelor Breakspear attends.

209 AC: Ashford Meadow. Lyonel is thirty, laughing his ass off and knocking crests into the crowd.

220-224: Prince Duncan is born. Lyonel's daughter is born around the same time.

225: Ormund born to Lyonel's son.

Sometime before 237: Lyonel's son dies. Ormund becomes the heir.

237: Betrothal of Duncan to Lyonel's daughter.

239: Duncan breaks betrothal. Rebellion. Trial by combat. Lyonel yields to Dunk at age sixty.

245: Ormund marries Rhaelle.

246: Steffon Baratheon born.

I feel this ties up the loose ends without making anyone a geriatric superhuman. It also makes Lyonel's rebellion hit a little harder: He's a guy who already buried a son and then watched his daughter's future get trashed by a prince's whim. The Laughing Storm had plenty of reasons to stop laughing for a bit.

Now, I'll admit: the twenty-ish year gap between Lyonel's son {born in 200 AC} and his daughter {born sometime in the early 220s} is a long stretch between kids, especially in Westeros, but it's not unheard of: Alyssa Velaryon gave birth to Jocelyn Baratheon at forty-seven, Alysanne herself birth to Gael at the age of forty-four, and Rhaella had Daenerys a full twenty-five years after Rhaegar. Lyonel's wife could have been a similar case: a healthy son early on, a long gap, and then a surprise daughter later in life.

Of course, there's another explanation that fits just as neatly: Lyonel could have remarried. It's entirely possible his first wife, the mother of his son born in 200 AC, died at some point in the intervening years {childbirth, illness, other causes}, and Lyonel took a younger second wife who gave him the daughter that was later betrothed to Duncan. That would make the daughter his child by a second marriage, while Ormund remains his grandson through the son from his first marriage. It's a clean way to explain the generational spread without relying on a late-in-life miracle baby.

Oh, and one more thing that makes this timeline feel even sturdier, in my opinion: Royce Baratheon. He was born in 131 as the posthumous son of Borros Baratheon. If you do the generational math, Lyonel born around 179, his dad in around 155, and his granddad Royce at 131, you get clean twenty-four year gaps between each generation. That means Royce is almost certainly Lyonel's grandfather, and the Lord Baratheon who threw the 200 tourney for the grandson was Royce's son.

Anyway, that's my likely wrong theory. If anyone has a different way of squaring these dates, I'm all ears.

Okay, so I've been down a Lyonel Baratheon rabbit hole for the last few hours, but I think I've actually landed on a timeline that makes sense, and I need to throw it out there to see what you guys think.

The main issues that kept bugging me:

The Tourney at Storm's End: Baelor mentions he fought in a tourney at Storm's End 'nine years past' {from 209} to celebrate the birth of a grandson of the Lord Baratheon.

Ormund is called 'the heir', not 'the son': Ormund Baratheon is referred to as Lyonel's heir, but never explicitly as his son. I have wondered if Ormund was actually a nephew or cousin.

I think both of these can be explained by something pretty simple: Lyonel had a son who was born in around 200, said son fathered Ormund, and then died before the rebellion.

Here's how I think it shakes out:

The grandson of 200: That baby whose birth Baelor attended? That's Lyonel's son. Lyonel himself would have been a grown man at the time. Say, late twenties at Ashford in 209. That fits perfectly with how he's described and drawn.

Andal succession tradition: Daughters come before nephews. If Ormund was just a nephew, Lyonel's daughter, the one betrothed to Prince Duncan, would have been the heir presumptive, but the text treats Ormund as the clear successor who eventually marries Rhaelle. I think the cleanest explanation for this is that Lyonel's son {Ormund's father} was the original heir, he died, and Ormund inherited his claim.

Ormund's age: Rhaelle was born in around 229, they marry in 245, and Steffon pops out in 246. So Ormund had to be old enough to father a kid by 246, meaning he was born by at least 229, though probably earlier. A birth year around 225 makes him a contemporary of Jaehaerys II {born in 225}, which is a nice little parallel since Jaehaerys later makes Ormund his Hand.

Lyonel versus Dunk in 239: If Lyonel was born in around 179 or thereabouts, he's sixty when he faces Dunk in single combat. Dunk's about a decade younger. That's totally reasonable for two absolute units who've been swinging weapons their whole lives. Barristan was out there carving people up Harpies at sixty-plus.

My working timeline, just for fun:

179: Lyonel Baratheon is born.

200 AC: Lyonel's first sonis born. Big tourney at Storm's End. Baelor Breakspear attends.

209 AC: Ashford Meadow. Lyonel is thirty, laughing his ass off and knocking crests into the crowd.

220-224: Prince Duncan is born. Lyonel's daughter is born around the same time.

225: Ormund born to Lyonel's son.

Sometime before 237: Lyonel's son dies. Ormund becomes the heir.

237: Betrothal of Duncan to Lyonel's daughter.

239: Duncan breaks betrothal. Rebellion. Trial by combat. Lyonel yields to Dunk at age sixty.

245: Ormund marries Rhaelle.

246: Steffon Baratheon born.

I feel this ties up the loose ends without making anyone a geriatric superhuman. It also makes Lyonel's rebellion hit a little harder: He's a guy who already buried a son and then watched his daughter's future get trashed by a prince's whim. The Laughing Storm had plenty of reasons to stop laughing for a bit.

Now, I'll admit: the twenty-ish year gap between Lyonel's son {born in 200 AC} and his daughter {born sometime in the early 220s} is a long stretch between kids, especially in Westeros, but it's not unheard of: Alyssa Velaryon gave birth to Jocelyn Baratheon at forty-seven, Alysanne herself birth to Gael at the age of forty-four, and Rhaella had Daenerys a full twenty-five years after Rhaegar. Lyonel's wife could have been a similar case: a healthy son early on, a long gap, and then a surprise daughter later in life.

Of course, there's another explanation that fits just as neatly: Lyonel could have remarried. It's entirely possible his first wife, the mother of his son born in 200 AC, died at some point in the intervening years {childbirth, illness, other causes}, and Lyonel took a younger second wife who gave him the daughter that was later betrothed to Duncan. That would make the daughter his child by a second marriage, while Ormund remains his grandson through the son from his first marriage. It's a clean way to explain the generational spread without relying on a late-in-life miracle baby.

Oh, and one more thing that makes this timeline feel even sturdier, in my opinion: Royce Baratheon. He was born in 131 as the posthumous son of Borros Baratheon. If you do the generational math, Lyonel born around 179, his dad in around 155, and his granddad Royce at 131, you get clean twenty-four year gaps between each generation. That means Royce is almost certainly Lyonel's grandfather, and the Lord Baratheon who threw the 200 tourney for the grandson was Royce's son.

Anyway, that's my likely wrong theory. If anyone has a different way of squaring these dates, I'm all ears.

I've been stuck on Barristan's wording in ADWD. He says in The Kingbreaker that all three sons 'had wed for love'.

>

Given what TWOIAF tells us about Daeron's relationship with Jeremy Norridge, the implication seems to be that there was a ceremony of some kind.

So where does a prince of House Targaryen and a knight from the Reach get married in secret? Daeron and Jeremy were squires together at Highgarden. Maybe a small septry on the edge of the woods, or perhaps performed by a village septon near Summerhall who had no idea who they really were?

As for Barristan witnessing it... he would have been a boy of fourteen or so in 251 AC, fresh from the tourney circuit and just starting to make a name for himself. He seems to be was enough to the Targaryen martial sphere to know the details of Daeron's life.

I suspect Barristan did see something. Maybe he was the one holding the horses outside the sept while Daeron and Jeremy exchanged vows inside. It would explain why, decades years later in Meereen, the memory of that specific union haunts his thoughts.

When Barristan talks about the 'bride price in corpses', I think he's not just thinking about Jenny of Oldstones, but also about the quiet dignity of two men he saw commit to each other in the dark, knowing it would have to end the way it did: side-by-side in battle, on a muddy field against the Rat, Hawk, and Pig.

Maybe Barristan saw the kiss and thought it was treason to the realm's order, but he also saw the loyalty and understood why his prince did it anyway.

I've been stuck on Barristan's wording in ADWD. He says in The Kingbreaker that all three sons 'had wed for love'.

>Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends.

Given what TWOIAF tells us about Daeron's relationship with Jeremy Norridge, the implication seems to be that there was a ceremony of some kind.

So where does a prince of House Targaryen and a knight from the Reach get married in secret? Daeron and Jeremy were squires together at Highgarden. Maybe a small septry on the edge of the woods, or perhaps performed by a village septon near Summerhall who had no idea who they really were?

As for Barristan witnessing it... he would have been a boy of fourteen or so in 251 AC, fresh from the tourney circuit and just starting to make a name for himself. He seems to be was enough to the Targaryen martial sphere to know the details of Daeron's life.

I suspect Barristan did see something. Maybe he was the one holding the horses outside the sept while Daeron and Jeremy exchanged vows inside. It would explain why, decades years later in Meereen, the memory of that specific union haunts his thoughts.

When Barristan talks about the 'bride price in corpses', I think he's not just thinking about Jenny of Oldstones, but also about the quiet dignity of two men he saw commit to each other in the dark, knowing it would have to end the way it did: side-by-side in battle, on a muddy field against the Rat, Hawk, and Pig.

Maybe Barristan saw the kiss and thought it was treason to the realm's order, but he also saw the loyalty and understood why his prince did it anyway.