u/lpetrich

How far north did early Indo-European speakers go?

I checked on the Corded Ware, Fatyanovo, Abashevo, Sintashta, Andronovo, and Afanasievo cultures, around 3000 - 2000 BCE, and I found a northern boundary of roughly West Coast & Southern Scandinavia, Lake Ladoga, Kazan, Chelyabinsk, Omsk, Novosibirsk, and Irkutsk.

Checking on maps of biomes, this boundary is roughly the southern boundary of the taiga, the boreal forest. South of there is temperate forest (Europe) and grassland (steppe) (Asia), with Eastern Europe having some forest with grassland south of it.

Was this the limit of how far north these people could go and still maintain herds of their usual domestic animals? North of this boundary are hunter-gatherers and reindeer herders.

Linguistically, north of this boundary from Europe to north central Asia is mostly Uralic speakers. They likely first spread westward from Central Asia in the Seima-Turbino culture, around 2000 BCE, and then spread northward.

East of there are Turkic, Tungusic, Yukaghir, Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Nivkh, and Eskaleut speakers, and of these, Turkic and Tungusic ones spread out from their homelands starting around 1 CE.

So if Uralic, Turkic, and Tungusic speakers could learn to herd reindeer, then why not early Indo-European speakers?

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u/lpetrich — 2 days ago
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Oldest Cultural Memories of Indo-European Speakers?

How far back do the cultural memories of the various Indo-European speakers go? Do any of them have any cultural memories of coming from elsewhere? Or were they at their first-recorded locations for as far back as their cultural memories went? Here are three examples of purported memories of coming from elsewhere:

Ireland

The 11th-century book "Lebor Gabála Érenn" (mod. Leabhar Gabhála Éireann) lit. "Book of the Taking of Ireland" -- "Book of Invasions" -- describes six waves of invaders, the people of Cessair, the people of Partholón, the people of Nemed, the Fir Bolg, the Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Milesians or sons of Mil. Lebor Gabála Érenn - Wikipedia

Of these, the Fir Bolg ("Men of Bolg") have a name that resembles that of a northern Continental Celtic tribe, the Belgae, described by Romans a millennium earlier.

Some of the other invaders are described as coming from the Iberian Peninsula, but without any ethnic-name identification comparable to Fir Bolg - Belgae.

Greece

Around 2200 - 2000 BCE (Early Helladic III Helladic Period - Madain Project (en)) are some disruptions in the archeological record, disruptions that are usually interpreted as the result of the arrival of early Greek speakers from the Balkans.

The closest thing to a memory of that invasion is likely the Dorian invasion of later Greek mythology, over a millennium later: Dorian Greeks coming out of central Greece and settling in the Peloponnesus, Crete, Sicily, and some other places. Dorian invasion - Wikipedia

India

I've seen some claims that the Vedas refer to unusually long days and nights, but I have had difficulty finding statements of those day and night length in the Vedas themselves. A source for some such claims is "The Arctic Home in the Vedas" by Bal Gangadhar Tilak, available at Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine, but it is not very clear.

An example of his sort of interpretation is in The Life of Lokamanya Tilak/Appendix B - Wikisource, the free online library

>We find passages in the Rig-veda (X, 89, 4. II, 15.2. IV, 56, 3 X, 89, 2) which compare the motion of the heavens to that of a wheel and state that the celestial Vault is supported as if on an axis. Combining these two statements, we may safely infer that the motion referred to is such a motion of the celestial hemisphere as can be witnessed only by an observer at the North Pole.

It is obvious from every point on our planet that the "fixed" stars move in lockstep with each other, moving like some steadily turning wheel. Away from the poles, the stars' axis of rotation is tilted from the vertical direction, and some stars rise and set, something that seems to have caused difficulty for this author.

u/lpetrich — 19 days ago

Theo Vennemann: Contact and Prehistory: The Indo-European Northwest

(sorry I can't post a link to online versions of this article. It's Theo Vennemann, "Contact and Prehistory: The Indo-European Northwest", 2010)

German linguist Theo Vennemann proposes a substrate origin of two grammatical features of some western European languages: vigesimal, base 20, number words, and two copulas, words for "to be".

Vigesimal, Base 20, Number Words

The most common base of numerals, number words, is decimal, base 10. It is found in numerous language families, including Indo-European, with reconstructible words for 2 to 10 and 100, and somewhat unstable words for 1 and 1000.

But in northwestern Europe, some Indo-European languages show evidence of having acquired base 20 in the Middle Ages. While Old Irish, at least recorded Old Irish, has inherited base 10, later Goildelic languages, like Irish and Scottish Gaelic, show base 20. Brythonic languages, like Welsh, also have base 20, and also Old Danish and Old French, coexisting with inherited decimal forms in the latter. In modern standard French, 20 to 60 are inherited base 10, while 70 to 90 are base 20, though some dialects have inherited 20 to 90. In English, "score" for 20 was sometimes used as a base-20 base.

What else has base 20? Basque, a pre-Indo-European relic in southwestern Europe.

Theo Vennemann proposes that Northwestern-European base-20 numerals are derived from relatives of Basque whose base-20 numerals were calqued by speakers of Indo-European languages.

Two Copulas, Words for "To Be"

Spanish is notable for having two copulas, ser, usually explained as for persistent states, and estar, for transitory states. Other Western Romance languages have this distinction, like Portuguese, and to a lesser extent, like Italian, and some had earlier had it, like French. Their ancestor Latin had only one copula, esse, giving ser and its cognates, while estar is from Latin stâre "to stand, stay".

In Germanic, Old English had two words, wesan (pres 3s is, past 3s waes), and beon (pres 3s bith), with beon being used for a timeless present and the future, and wesan being having the remaining uses. Modern English has a merged conjugation of their descendants.

Other West Germanic languages also have merged conjugations of cognates of wesan and beon, while North Germanic has only cognates of wesan.

One reconstructs Proto-Germanic *wesanan (pres 3s *isti, past 3s *was) and *beunan (pres 3s *beuthi), and these from *es-, *wes-, and *bheuH-. Of these, *es- is the imperfective copula ("to be, remain") and *bheuH- the perfective one ("to be, become"), merged in Latin and Balto-Slavic.

In Celtic, Irish has is for equating to nouns and bi for equating to adjectives or prepositional phrases. Old Irish also had that distinction, and these words also are derived from PIE *es- and *bheuH- .

Here also, we find a distinction in some Basque dialects, between izan and egon, used much like Spanish ser and estar.

Here also, Theo Vennemann proposes a substrate influence, with two copulas that were calqued by speakers of Indo-European languages.

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u/lpetrich — 21 days ago