u/SmokeIntelligent119

▲ 4 r/mmt_economics+1 crossposts

Is this a legitimate way to consider a lending policy under a zero interest or negative interest rate banking?

Two-Pool Demurrage Bond Model

Setup

A lender deposits principal P_0 into a term contract. Over time, two balances evolve:

· Principal pool P_t – depreciates at rate d per period (the demurrage / holding tax).
· Return pool R_t – accumulates returns, then also depreciates at rate d.

The return is calculated on the combined total (P_t + R_t), added to R_t, and only then does the depreciation hit both pools.

Period‑by‑period dynamics

```
P_t = (1-d) * P_{t-1}

R_t = (1-d) * [ R_{t-1} + r * (P_{t-1} + R_{t-1}) ]
```

Where:

· P_0 = initial principal
· d = demurrage rate (e.g. 0.03 for 3%)
· r = nominal return rate applied to the total balance (P + R)
· t = time in periods (e.g. years)

Closed‑form solution

Because P_t = P_0 * (1-d)^t, the return pool has a tidy closed form:

R_t = P_0 * (1-d)^t * [ (1+r)^t – 1 ]

And the total value:

V_t = P_t + R_t = P_0 * [ (1-d)(1+r) ]^t

Key properties economists will spot immediately

Property Formula
Breakeven return rate r* = d / (1-d)
Effective CAGR g = (1-d)(1+r) – 1 = r – d – r*d
Principal share of total P_t / V_t = (1+r)^{-t}
Return pool share of total R_t / V_t = 1 – (1+r)^{-t}

At maturity (when P_t → 0), the lender essentially receives R_t.

Numerical example

Parameter Value
Principal P_0 $1,000
Demurrage d 3% per year
Nominal return r 5% per year
Term T 33 years

Results:

· P_33 = $366
· R_33 = $1,465
· Maturity payout = $1,831 (1.83× principal)
· Effective CAGR = 1.85% per year

If r = 3.093%, the payout equals exactly $1,000 (breakeven). Any r below that means the lender loses nominal principal.

One‑line framing

"This is a zero-interest lending policy where the demurrage tax applies to both principal and reinvested returns, but returns are calculated on the growing total balance. It forces money into circulation while allowing lenders to preserve purchasing power through a compounded return pool that replaces the depreciated principal at maturity

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u/SmokeIntelligent119 — 6 days ago

I am working on a story and would like help fleshing out my book

I made a edited version at the bottom using AI to make what I’m saying easier to understand

this for me I’m American, however I wanted to make a fictional world where the state of the world is different…instead of Capitalism as the default operating system I decided to make communism as the default state of the world but I encountered what is known as the socialist calculate debate and the value of Price signals in coordination purposes…but I didn’t want to use currency in my book, because it didn’t fit the theme, so instead I decided to create what I considered would be an operating system for how labour and economic policy would work in my world…consistency is very important to me, so I had to create an heterodox alternative society for my book…this is what I would like you to address…be critical of it, because honestly you know more then me, I’m making this from a place with no understanding of what I’m trying to do, so please help me if you can. Now first, how the economy works…it’s based on contribution not labor output…it’s measured in four Dimensions [M/S/I/E] these dimensions work in three different distinct ways first is validation that you have contributed enough to the Network to have the network produce this for you, if yes, you proceed to part two, is it scarce or rare or limited? If yes how many of these items exist? You can attempt to aquire one by Karma bidding using Pareto Ratios for determining winner. When you bid, you choose all the slots that you wish to bid on, you can bid as many slots as you want but you can only win one, then you place an amount of your karma from each dimension into a karma [M/S/I/E] and place a sealed bid, after the bidding time ends the highest Pareto winner claims the item but they burn their karma in the process and everyone else gets to keep theirs, this represents access to the commons now by giving up access later and is suppose to create a Nash equilibrium on the tragedy of the commons. This is what I came up with for the economy side but in my story your voice is amplified by your contributions but you still only get one vote..in my book you have three different distinct ways that you interact all determined by your contributions to the network. First is your Vector Wallet, second is your Karma pool, and third is your credibility which affects governance and staking in the future of society by giving up your voice now for an amplified voice in the future. So after Karma pools you have participatory budgets and innovation bonds, which are affected by credibility, in the first you build coalitions with other members by collecting signature and having people spare some credibility for your proposals, all this like previously is measured in [M/S/I/E] which is based on the following principles with the network. Zero point (0 units) is always the baseline of no net change to the network in that dimension — neither gain nor loss relative to current steady-state stocks.

+1 unit = standardized positive contribution (creation, addition, or measurable improvement).

-1 unit = standardized negative impact (depletion, harm, or measurable degradation).

All measurements are continuous and can take any real value, but the +1 / 0 / -1 points are the immutable constitutional reference points.

M — Material Dimension (Red)

Unit: FAO Caloric Equivalent (kcal) — metabolizable energy or embodied primary energy normalized to FAO/WHO/UNU standards.

• +1 unit: Net creation or provision of exactly 1 FAO-kcal of metabolizable energy above current stock-maintenance requirements.

• 0 units: Zero net change in material/energy stocks — balanced inputs/outputs with no accumulation or depletion (maintenance level only).

• -1 unit: Net depletion or irreversible loss of exactly 1 FAO-kcal equivalent of usable material/energy stock.

Where 0 starts: Current steady-state physical capital and resource stocks of the network.

S — Social Dimension (Teal)

Unit: ILO Care/Coordination Hour (ICATUS classification for unpaid domestic and care work).

• +1 unit: Exactly one hour of high-quality care or coordination labor that produces a measurable net increase in trust, cohesion, or relational capacity.

• 0 units: Neutral activity with zero net relational impact.

• -1 unit: Exactly one hour of activity causing measurable trust erosion, conflict, or relational harm.

Where 0 starts: Current baseline level of social trust and relational networks.

I — Innovation Dimension (Blue)

Unit: UNESCO Knowledge/Skill-Equivalent Hour (normalized to UIS literacy/numeracy and competency frameworks).

• +1 unit: Exactly one effective hour of knowledge creation, transmission, or skill acquisition that produces a measurable net increase in the network’s problem-solving capacity.

• 0 units: Neutral activity with zero net change in collective knowledge stock.

• -1 unit: Exactly one hour equivalent causing measurable knowledge loss, skill degradation, or spread of misinformation.

Where 0 starts: Current baseline level of network knowledge and skills.

E — Ecological Dimension (Green) [v1.3 — Dual-Metric Resolution]

Primary Unit: IPCC AR6 tCO₂e (GWP100).

Secondary Reporting Requirement (mandatory, non-substitutable): Planetary-Boundary Pressure Index (PBPI) vector per Stockholm Resilience Centre / IPBES frameworks.

• +1 unit: Net sequestration of 1 tCO₂e (GWP100) AND measurable improvement in relevant PBPI components.

• 0 units: No net pressure increase on any component relative to safe operating space.

• -1 unit: Emission of 1 tCO₂e (GWP100) OR worsening of any PBPI component.

Where 0 starts: Current safe operating space of planetary boundaries — no additional overshoot.

Asymmetric logic: +1 requires AND (both carbon and PBPI must improve). -1 triggers on OR (either carbon or any PBPI component worsening). No substitution: a project cannot offset biodiversity loss with carbon sequestration.

PBPI components (reported separately, never collapsed): biosphere integrity, land-system change, freshwater change, biogeochemical flows, ocean acidification, novel entities.

Ecocultural values: Relational/Rights of Nature indicators are expressed in S or I dimensions. They do not substitute for E clearance.

So as you gain your Vector units they can be used in three different ways that don’t effect each other, this is medium of exchange and unit of accounting for the first way, scarcity in karma bids for the second, or a stake in developing the society as credibility, they all three grow at the same time in the same way. When a proposal needs backing you trade some credibility units to back it, this doesn’t burn them it just says that you think this is credible but it locks them away so you can’t use them on other proposals you have to use the remainder, when out of credibility and proposal coalitions stop you then vote on proposals in RCV style this ranks the proposals by the will of the community and then everyone spends by destroying their credibility by staking it on projects to be realized… ofc say you rather invest in the future instead of now you can then provide staking for other’s projects in the network and you partake in the returns of the project by receiving dimensions in all three vital areas your wallet, your karma and your governance… while its staked on projects you can’t use it for governance…now all three vectors decay at a rate of 1.5% for biological entities and 3% for nonbiological entities like corporations. But non biological entities don’t get votes in government but they can add voice meaning they can back you for your proposals in the first stage but not the second or third stage, which also brings me to my second phase of how this works..so everything is owned by everyone, and no one really owns anything instead with organized ourselves into a social network of human flourishing, because no one owns anything instead of being paid by a company your paid for your contributions by having them validated, this means that because nothing is transferred by use its burned by it that you can’t really pay anyone, so everyone makes a Fiat type currency in four dimensions based on those earlier definitions on what counts as a unit because it’s the act that generates the money but the money itself isn’t backed by anything it just shows your position in the network relative to everyone else, that’s why I called it vectors because it’s socioeconomic positioning in a network, and burning is just the network reaching steady state.

Here’s a cleaned-up version of your document. I’ve preserved all your ideas but restructured for clarity, fixed grammar, and tightened the logic flow:

The Network Economy — System Design Document

Overview

The world’s default economic operating system is communism, but rather than relying on currency or price signals for coordination, this society runs on a contribution-based framework called the Vector Network. Instead of wages or markets, participation is measured, recorded, and rewarded across four dimensions.

The Four Dimensions: [M / S / I / E]

All contribution, scarcity, and governance in the network is measured using four standardized dimensions. The constitutional reference points are immutable:

•	+1 unit = a standardized positive contribution (creation, addition, or measurable improvement)

•	0 units = zero net change — the baseline of no impact on the network’s steady state

•	−1 unit = a standardized negative impact (depletion, harm, or measurable degradation)

All values are continuous and can take any real number, but the +1 / 0 / −1 anchors are fixed.

M — Material Dimension (Red)

Unit: FAO Caloric Equivalent (kcal) — metabolizable energy or embodied primary energy, normalized to FAO/WHO/UNU standards.

•	+1: Net creation or provision of exactly 1 FAO-kcal of metabolizable energy above current stock-maintenance requirements.

•	0: Zero net change in material/energy stocks — balanced inputs and outputs, maintenance level only.

•	−1: Net depletion or irreversible loss of exactly 1 FAO-kcal equivalent of usable material/energy stock.

Baseline: Current steady-state physical capital and resource stocks of the network.

S — Social Dimension (Teal)

Unit: ILO Care/Coordination Hour (ICATUS classification for unpaid domestic and care work).

•	+1: Exactly one hour of high-quality care or coordination labor producing a measurable net increase in trust, cohesion, or relational capacity.

•	0: Neutral activity with zero net relational impact.

•	−1: Exactly one hour of activity causing measurable trust erosion, conflict, or relational harm.

Baseline: Current level of social trust and relational networks.

I — Innovation Dimension (Blue)

Unit: UNESCO Knowledge/Skill-Equivalent Hour (normalized to UIS literacy/numeracy and competency frameworks).

•	+1: Exactly one effective hour of knowledge creation, transmission, or skill acquisition producing a measurable net increase in the network’s problem-solving capacity.

•	0: Neutral activity with zero net change in collective knowledge stock.

•	−1: Exactly one hour equivalent causing measurable knowledge loss, skill degradation, or the spread of misinformation.

Baseline: Current level of network knowledge and skills.

E — Ecological Dimension (Green) — v1.3, Dual-Metric Resolution

Primary Unit: IPCC AR6 tCO₂e (GWP100).

Secondary Reporting Requirement (mandatory, non-substitutable): Planetary Boundary Pressure Index (PBPI) vector per Stockholm Resilience Centre / IPBES frameworks.

•	+1: Net sequestration of 1 tCO₂e (GWP100) AND measurable improvement in relevant PBPI components. (Both conditions required.)

•	0: No net pressure increase on any PBPI component relative to safe operating space.

•	−1: Emission of 1 tCO₂e (GWP100) OR worsening of any PBPI component. (Either condition triggers.)

Asymmetric Logic: Improvement requires AND. Harm triggers on OR. There is no substitution — a project cannot offset biodiversity loss with carbon sequestration.

PBPI components (reported separately, never collapsed): biosphere integrity, land-system change, freshwater change, biogeochemical flows, ocean acidification, novel entities.

Ecocultural note: Relational and Rights of Nature indicators are expressed in the S or I dimensions. They do not substitute for E clearance.

The Three Uses of Vector Units

As you accumulate Vector units across [M/S/I/E], they serve three distinct functions simultaneously. These uses do not interfere with one another — all three pools grow in the same way, at the same time.

|Function |Pool Name |Purpose |

|------------------------------------|-----------------|--------------------------------|

|Medium of exchange & unit of account|**Vector Wallet**|Validates access to the commons |

|Scarcity allocation |**Karma Pool** |Bids on scarce or rare resources|

|Governance & social investment |**Credibility** |Stakes on proposals and futures |

Function 1: The Vector Wallet — Access Validation

The Vector Wallet answers a simple question: have you contributed enough to the network to have the network produce this for you?

If yes, you proceed to the next check. If the item is non-scarce, access is granted directly. If the item is scarce, rare, or limited, you move to the Karma bidding process.

Because nothing is owned — everything belongs to everyone — there are no wages, no prices, and no transfers of property. Instead, the act of contribution itself generates your position in the network. This is why the units are called Vectors: they represent socioeconomic positioning relative to the rest of the network, not a stockpile of stored value. Spending is not transfer — it is the network returning to steady state. Burning units simply means the imbalance created by your contribution has been resolved.

Function 2: The Karma Pool — Scarcity Allocation

When an item is scarce, rare, or exists in limited quantities, access is determined through Karma bidding, using Pareto Ratios to determine the winner.

How it works:

1.	You choose all the slots you wish to bid on. You may bid on as many slots as you like, but you can only win one.

2.	You place a sealed bid, committing a Karma amount from each dimension \[M/S/I/E\].

3.	When the bidding period ends, the highest Pareto winner claims the item — but burns their Karma in the process. All losing bidders keep theirs.

This mechanic is designed to address the Tragedy of the Commons: winning means giving up future access to the commons in exchange for present access. This is intended to produce a Nash equilibrium — no individual has an incentive to overbid, because the cost of winning is real and permanent.

Function 3: Credibility — Governance & Social Investment

Your Credibility pool governs how you shape the future of the society. It operates in three stages.

Stage 1 — Coalition Building (Participatory Budgeting)

To bring a proposal forward, you must build a coalition. You collect signatures and ask other members to pledge Credibility in support of your proposal. Pledged Credibility is not burned — it is locked. You cannot use locked Credibility on other proposals; only your remaining free Credibility is available.

Non-biological entities (such as cooperatives or corporations) may participate at this stage — they can back proposals and amplify voice — but they do not vote and cannot participate in Stages 2 or 3.

Stage 2 — Ranked Choice Vote

Once coalition-building ends, the community votes on proposals using Ranked Choice Voting (RCV). Each person has one vote, regardless of their Credibility pool. Proposals are ranked by the will of the community.

Your voice in governance is amplified by your contributions — but you still only cast one vote.

Stage 3 — Staking & Realization

After the vote, members stake Credibility on proposals to fund their realization. Unlike pledging, staking burns Credibility — it is a permanent commitment.

Alternatively, if you prefer to invest in the future rather than the present, you may stake on other members’ projects. In exchange, you receive a share of the project’s returns across all three pools: your Wallet, your Karma, and your Credibility. While Credibility is staked on a project, it cannot be used for governance.

Decay

All Vector units decay over time:

•	Biological entities (individuals): 1.5% decay rate

•	Non-biological entities (cooperatives, institutions, etc.): 3% decay rate

This prevents indefinite accumulation and keeps the network dynamic.

Critical notes and open questions are addressed separately.

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u/SmokeIntelligent119 — 1 month ago
▲ 9 r/postcapitalism+1 crossposts

Market socialist, I am not for capitalism but I’m curious how do markets work without capitalism?

I’m not very deep in theory but I am a dedicated Leftist without a home in dialect theory, but Price signals how do you manage to have those in a Post-currency system? I ended up stuck on this because I felt that in order to get a classless stateless society we would need some sort of emergent bottom up way of coordinating and in this position as much as I hate it currency is king at aggregated information in minimal dimensions, but it’s only because of Price signals, tricky little things, especially with currency being Fiat and a collective illusion, but the coordinating ability of price signals is very well documented and noted in the socialist calculate debate of the 20th century…and well in my search for what could replace Money as an item for communicating coordination without a centralized system, how do we achieve this?

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u/SmokeIntelligent119 — 1 month ago