u/Prestigious-Way-5235

I saw another post writing about a similar topic, and I figured I would sort of piggyback off of it. I also am not trying to denigrate any authors. I also want to make it clear that I have no issue with YA whatsoever and respect its place in the fantasy mythos.

Also, this will be pretty long, for which I apologize. I've got a lot of thoughts here, and I was unsure where to post them to get some feedback and discussion. Seeing as it pertains to writing, I thought this would be the best place.

While fantasy, as a genre, has always toed the line, and YA is a subjective/amorphous definition, I think the last 20 years of fantasy have increasingly produced more YA-level material marketed to/for adults. It's not that I think there is not a steady wave of mature material being written, but I think readers' tastes have clearly shifted.

I would like to start by mentioning Sanderson. Regardless of how anyone feels about him, he has become a pillar of the modern fantasy genre and has opened doorways for a lot of new fantasy readers. His impact cannot be overstated. His commercial success has also led to many copycats, a phenomenon not unlike what happened with Harry Potter. While Sanderson is a prolific writer, there are reasonable questions about the maturity and quality of his writing. It would not be entirely unfair to suggest that he writes what are effectively YA books aimed at a wide audience.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this or with Sanderson, but I do think there is a slight issue with perception and trends. I feel that so much modern fantasy aimed at adults is written in a way that feels more like it's aimed at young adults. Whether that be coming-of-age themes, hyper-accessible language, fast pacing (does not apply to Sanderson in all cases lol), happy endings, typical romance buildup, an unwillingness to engage in genuinely complex themes (beyond things like rebellion, good vs evil, etc), very little subtext or subtlety, and other common tropes.

Sanderson, widely regarded as the peak of modern fantasy, does not necessarily bode well for the genre in my eyes. Not because I have a personal issue with him, but because I don't think he ever pushes any boundaries or strays beyond a very, very safe middle ground of writing. He has expressly stated that he writes simply to be accessible and that he avoids misunderstandings by reiterating and explaining almost every aspect of his world and plot repeatedly. Inherently bad? No, but I think his commercial success does indeed dictate the market. But, if the author at the peak of adult fantasy is producing content that avoids any sort of depth or complexity, there are legitimate trickle-down effects.

I have heard that the current romantasy genre has had its fair share of similar issues. I have limited experience with these books, but what I have read suggests many adult characters behave like teenagers, and narrative depth or complexity isn't the goal, which is understandable.

It was less than two decades ago that George Martin was at the apex of this genre, and the work he produced was both fun and fantastical, as well as emotionally complex. There was ambiguity and uncertainty, details only to be caught on a third or fourth read. I don't think ASOIAF is the most sophisticated thing ever, but compared to modern fantasy works, it looks incredible. Steven Erikson, who is thankfully still writing, produced incredibly complex material that delves into all sorts of philosophical musings, offering a post-modernistic view of the genre. Despite Malazan's rather overbearing fanbase, Erikson is an incredibly talented and well-studied author. Susanna Clarke and Robin Hobb seem to still be writing, which is wonderful for the genre as well, particularly Clarke, as it pertains to more literary work.

I do not expect every author to reach for these same highs, and I do not expect every reader to enjoy them, but I am concerned that market pressure is commercializing fantasy to the point that more mature or literary works are being pushed aside.

There absolutely are still authors producing very high-quality fantasy work, there is no doubt, but with readers' tastes shifting to less complex material, it seems like the PR for fantasy (as a genre) in literary circles has never been worse. The genre seems to be growing in sales but shrinking in scope.

I suppose my thought here is that YA as a classifier isn't what it used to be. It has grown beyond its boundaries to the point where it means very little. If Sanderson's work is considered adult, but Earthsea (a series with sophisticated writing and serious philosophical depth if you look for it) is YA, then there is very little value in that distinction. If sex or violence are the only differentiators (not the characters' intellectual/emotional maturity, themes, or anything else mentioned above), then I am certainly concerned with the way the genre is moving. If adult content isn't able to display more sophistication than what is written for children, then what does that mean for authors?

And before someone mentions it, yes, I do know that a great deal of fantasy writing throughout the last 50 years has been anti-intellectual. But it is my subjective opinion that far less quality content is being produced in the modern, consumption-heavy market. There is so much money flowing through that publishers will only look for what's hottest.

Feel free to agree or disagree. Does anyone else feel like trends have completely consumed the fantasy industry? Is it social media, access to publishing, aesthetics over quality, hype over substance, trends, etc.? Do any writers here find it difficult to get people to engage with quality, sophisticated content because of a lack of interest in complexity?

Also, I really tried turning this into a BookTok hate post. I'm sure there are enough of those. I was/am looking for a more thoughtful discussion on writing within the genre. However, I know BookTok is the elephant in the room.

*Apologies for reposting. I realized I messed up the tag and couldn't figure out how to fix it. I'm new here.*

I'm writing this both as a question and as an opportunity to vent about a series. That series is the Wheel of Time. There will be no spoilers in here, and I'm also not trying to yuck anyone's yum here. This is my exceedingly subjective opinion.

I have always known about WoT, but took my time getting into it. I've been working through most of the big-ticket, popular fantasy series, like The Realm of the Elderlings, ASOIAF, The First Law, The Malazan Book of the Fallen, and a few more, over the last few years, so I figured, why not mix the WoT books in? I had seen the show and thought it was pretty terrible, but I could see how much interesting material there was and figured a big, traditional fantasy story would fit right in as a sort of cozy read.

Now on book 6, everything about this series speaks to me on paper. The world-building, the reluctant hero, the diverse use of magic and power, some of the subversions, and the idea that this is riffing on a lot of the core concepts Tolkien and others laid out. The major plot threads of the books also really spoke to me, and I think the way things are headed is interesting.

There are two major problems for me: character interactions and dialogue. I think they may genuinely be dealbreakers. I don't think I can go on.

Every character in this series is pretty annoying. They are all caricatures of themselves. This isn't a major issue for me, and I can support it if the way they interacted isn't legitimately painful for me to read, but unfortunately, it is. The dialogue is SO BAD to me. Every character is weirdly prudish and stilted, especially the ones who are supposedly best friends. Nynaeve/Egwene, Perrin/Mat, or Rand/anyone don't interact like they know or like each other at all. The dialogue is so unbelievably inhuman to me. It's as if an alien were trying to depict how humans interact. They are so weird and cagey all the time.

This is all made worse by the fact that Jordan seems to rely heavily on communication breakdowns. So many issues arise from characters not having conversations like normal humans do. I understand that WoT was written with younger readers in mind and that this is a common trope in children's media, but it reaches a point where all the human drama feels unnecessary and manufactured.

It seems like refusing to have characters talk allows Jordan to draw out the main character relationships and friendships as long as possible. But this also means that the books feel like they're spinning the wheel (unintentional pun). The characters are almost more distant from one another in book 6 than in book 1, and for no good reason. There has been barely any legitimate character development beyond Mat becoming more likable, and even that is due to a plot point rather than genuine development.

None of these characters feels any different in this book than in book 1, to be honest. Things have happened to them, sure, and we've seen them interact more, but none of them or these relationships have evolved. It just feels so unserious. ASOIAF has more character development in 1 book than this has had in 5.5.

Also, if you disagree/want to downvote, that's totally cool! I understand. I also would love to hear you out on your replies and I appreciate any discussion.

First, am I totally crazy here, or does anyone else feel the same? Second, has this happened to you guys with a book or series?

TLDR: For me, this series has horrifically inhuman dialogue and character interactions to the point where I can't keep reading, even though I like everything about it on paper.