u/LavishnessGood1863

Need HELP on Touch of Gracelessness

I'm working on an Elven Sage Arcane Trickster Build (Sage 9 / Vivi 1 / AT 10), and I'm stuck on the first level spell selection. The main point of friction is Touch of Gracelessness.

Touch of Gracelessness is a zero-damage, niche boss disabler that pairs well with Conjuration school magic (Grease, Pit, Chains of Light, etc.). Cheap at level 1, and very likely to bypass SR with Elven Magic and Greater Spell Penetration — knocking down enemy DEX by at least 3 (and can go as high as 11), which translates to -2 AC and -2 Reflex saves (as high as -6), equivalent to a +2 (+6) spell DC increase.

Conditions where Touch of Gracelessness earns its slot:

  1. Target has high HP, high AC, and crit immunity — and comes in droves. The battle cannot be finished quickly by melee members.
  2. Target is resistant or immune to elemental damage and sneak attack is unavailable — the AT cannot reliably contribute damage as normal.
  3. Target is susceptible to Reflex-targeting Conjuration while the party intends to use it — Touch of Gracelessness lowers AC and Reflex saves to amplify those spells.
  4. Target is semi-lockable by tank aggro — Conjuration hazard surfaces trigger saves each round, compounding the value of Reflex reduction.

Not all 4 conditions need to be met simultaneously. 2-3 would make Touch of Gracelessness appealing. Any thoughts? (Please post spoilers alert if needed)

Currently running: Vanish, Snowball, Grease, Reduce Person, Expeditious Retreat — all stress tested:

Snowball: One of the few low-level arcane damage spells that ignores SR.  

Grease: Combos directly with Touch of Gracelessness; DC boosted by bloodline arcana slot increase; remains useful late game.

Reduce Person: Grants +2 DEX and +1 attack — useful in most encounters for a ranged magic user.

Expeditious Retreat: Better battlefield positioning when Haste wears off. Also makes the AT an excellent scout — with investment in Trickery, Stealth, and Perception, combined with Mirror Image and Blur, the AT is arguably more efficient at scouting than a dedicated rogue.

Vanish: Weakest of the five, potions are plentiful, and outclassed later by Improved Invisibility and Invisible Thief — but strong early game where it directly translates into sneak attack output. Also useful on party members in “oh shit” moments.

Is any of the five worth axing for Touch of Gracelessness? Am I missing something?

True Strike is covered by the Vivisectionist level. Duration is irrelevant — by mid-to-endgame, 30+ INT should provide 4-5 extracts per rest, which is probably sufficient.

Magic Missile is free via the Arcane bloodline.

(I'm not sure of the reasoning, so I'll just post it here:)

ADDENDUM: When Touch of Gracelessness Outperforms another Grease

Think of Touch of Gracelessness as an alternative to casting another Grease — specifically when Grease is already present (let's suppose 4). The higher the enemy Reflex save, the higher the payoff.

With 4 overlapping Grease fields at DC 20, the probability of the enemy failing at least one save per round is:

1 - (success rate)^4

  • Reflex +15 (75% success per field): 68.4% prone chance per round
  • Reflex +20 (95% success per field): 18.5% prone chance per round

Applying Touch of Gracelessness (-2 Reflex) shifts each field's success rate down by 10%, compounding across all four fields simultaneously:

  • Reflex +15 → +13.7% improvement (82.1% total)
  • Reflex +20 → +29.3% improvement (47.8% total)

The crossover point: Touch of Gracelessness outperforms a fifth Grease at approximately enemy Reflex +17 to +18 against DC 20 — where stacking additional fields has diminishing returns but reducing the per-field success rate compounds across all existing fields simultaneously. This threshold is realistic for>!Act 4-5 bosses on Unfair difficulty.!<.

Note that these calculations represent minimum value only. Upside includes higher DEX penalty rolls, AC reduction, and amplification of every future Conjuration cast for the remainder of the encounter. At that point, Touch of Gracelessness is no longer a niche spell — it is an efficient use of a level 1 slot.

ADDENDUM ADDENDUM

I overlooked the fact that Sage Sorcerors learn the Invisbility Spell for free at CL 5... there is no struggle now. Vanish removed for Touch of Gracelessness. Case Closed.

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u/LavishnessGood1863 — 4 days ago

Empower vs. Maximize: Which Metamagic Feat Is Worth More? – The 33% Rule

A mathematical analysis for Pathfinder: Kingmaker (Game version: 2.17b)

Overview

Metamagic feats amplify your spells but consume higher-level spell slots. The two primary damage metamagics are:

Metamagic Feat Slot Level Cost Effect
Empower Spell +2 slot levels ×1.5 all variable numeric results
Maximize Spell +3 slot levels All dice rolled at maximum value

The key insight: Maximize costs one slot level more than Empower. Is that premium worth it?

The Mathematics: Expected Value

For a die with N faces, the average roll = (1 + 2 + ... + N) / N = (N + 1) / 2. For a spell dealing 10 dice of damage:

Die Base Avg (10 dice) Empowered (×1.5) Maximized Max Premium vs Emp Slot Cost Difference
d4 25 37.5 40 +6.7% +1 level
d6 35 52.5 60 +14.3% +1 level
d8 45 67.5 80 +18.5% +1 level

Raw expected value favors Empower on slot efficiency — you cast more spells before running dry at the cost of a small damage ceiling reduction.

The Reliability Framework: Discounting Variance

However, raw averages include lucky high rolls that you cannot count on. A more practical approach: model 80%~90% reliability by removing the top 20%~10% of outcomes (remove highest result per die rolled). For a spell dealing 10 dice of damage:

Die Removed Adj. Avg (10 dice) Emp. Floor (×1.5) Maximized Maximize Premium
d4 4 20 30 40 +33% (at +1 slot level)
d6 6 30 45 60 +33% (at +1 slot level)
d8 8 40 60 80 +33% (at +1 slot level)

The 33% Rule: Once variance is discounted, Maximize delivers exactly +33% reliable damage over Empower across all die sizes — at a cost of exactly +1 slot level. This appears to be intentional game design.

Design Intent: A Developer-Calibrated Tradeoff

The consistent 33% figure across d4, d6, and d8 is almost certainly not a coincidence. The developers priced Maximize’s slot premium at exactly the value of its damage reliability premium.

Neither feat is mechanically better. Pick whichever one fills the open spell slots your build already has available — the correct choice is the one that gets cast.

What About Quicken?

Quicken Spell costs +4 slot levels and adds zero damage — it is a pure action economy tool, not a damage amplifier. Evaluate it separately from Empower and Maximize rather than as a competing choice.

Stacking Mechanics

Metamagic of the same type does not stack, regardless of whether it comes from a feat or a rod — Empower + Empower, Reach + Reach, and similar combinations apply only once. Different metamagic types stack freely; when combining multiple feats, each adds its slot level cost to the spell being cast.

Practical Notes

For dedicated arcane damage dealers, taking at least one of Empower or Maximize as a feat is highly recommended — most rods cannot provide both simultaneously, so a feat is needed to stack the two types together (Empower feat + Maximize rod, or Maximize feat + Empower rod). By endgame, if spare feat slots allow, taking both gives full flexibility.

Which to prioritize first depends on the specific build’s open spell slot distribution. Personally, I would pick Empower first and cover the gap with Maximize rods.

For Sage Sorcerers or builds with the Arcane bloodline: each +1 slot level from a metamagic feat (not a rod, which costs no additional slot) improves spell save DC by +1. Since the game calculates DC from the effective slot consumed, rods apply the metamagic effect without raising the slot level and provide no DC bonus. Reach Metamagic is worth noting, though its importance is secondary to either Empower or Maximize.

Conclusion

Maximize over Empower = +33% reliable damage per cast, at +1 slot level.

Neither feat is a mistake. Pick the one your spell slots support, stack them with rods, and take both when feats allow.

Game version: 2.17b. Analysis applies to tabletop Pathfinder 1e as well, since metamagic slot costs are identical.

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u/LavishnessGood1863 — 5 days ago

Unfair Critweaver Knight Build - Tank / Support / Damager dealer

Playing Pathfinder Kingmaker (Game version: 2.17b)

I know this is an old game. I have reviewed Unfair guides extensively, in particular: Guide and Walkthrough (PS4) by chris-williams[1], GOG.com community discussions by Roahin[2], and the Unfair Guide by chautemoc[3]. This build is heavily influenced by chautemoc’s Melee Sorcerer.

This Scaled Fist 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Eldritch Knight 10 (level 20) build exploits the synergy between Spell Critical (EK 10) and full-round Heighten Spell, turning low-level Conjuration spells into reliable in-combat control tools. Combined with the standard monk dip, Crane Style line, and Sorcerer defensive stacking, AC reaches levels where enemies effectively only hit on crits. In practice, melee crits translate directly into free, high-DC control effects that bypass Spell Resistance, allowing the build to convert attack volume into battlefield control while maintaining full defensive integrity, effectively combining tanking, caster support, and sustained melee damage on Unfair difficulty.

Features:

  • Critical-fishing engine → Fauchard enables the highest crit rate possible (15/20 with Improved Critical), At 4 attacks per round, chance of landing at least one critical hit is 76%, at 5 attacks, ~83.2% (vs. 59% / 67.2% for 17/20 weapons). Its 6 ft reach improves positioning and increases AoOs.
  • Spell Critical → With Spell Focus: Conjuration, crits convert into free control output. Conjuration bypasses Spell Resistance and is not CL-dependent, allowing near–full caster effectiveness alongside melee pressure.
  • Strong CHA scaling → justifies prioritizing CHA on level-up to maximize AC, DC, and spell capacity - important given the high slot consumption.
  • Fighter BAB scaling The build reaches 16 BAB for a 4th iterative attack. This requires a 2-level Scaled Fist dip (instead of 1), trading a Sorcerer level (-1 CL, fewer spells known/cast, -1 bloodline AC) for an extra attack and feat.
  • Mastery Synergy → Bull Rush leverages Mastery Fauchard and the Dragon Disciple bonus Power Attack feat. It’s situational but enables repositioning crit-immune enemies into hazards (e.g., Grease, Hungry Pit, Deadly Earth) without sacrificing standard attacks. Can be swapped for Greater Weapon Focus late game.

Weaknesses:

  • Relies on external sources (e.g., Bard Dirge Song or Cleric Frightful Aspect) to trigger Shatter Defenses (typical for Gish builds for most of the campaign).
  • High spell slot consumption; CHA scaling partially mitigates this.
  • Weaker vs. crit-immune enemies (rare); base damage remains acceptable.
  • Weaker vs. high-Reflex or Freedom of Movement targets.

Key Differences (vs. chautemoc’s Melee Sorcerer)

  • Uses Heighten Spell instead of Extend Spell.
  • Uses Fauchard (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) instead of Vanquisher Greataxe.
  • Prioritizes CHA over STR.
  • Takes a 2-level Scaled Fist dip instead of 1.

Critweaver Knight Overview
Race: Aasimar, Angelkin
Alignment: Lawful-Good
Main Skills: Mobility 3, Knowledge: Arcana 5, Persuasion (Max)
Secondary Skills: Stealth 1+, Use Magic Device (Max)
Endgame Gear: >!Lawful Good robes, Dreamer, Ring of Circumstances (STR, DEX, CHA, DC), Equilibrium or Wind Breath, Mastery, Opportunist’s boots, +8 Belt / Hat / Bracers, Absolver Cloak.!<

Stats
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
18 12 12 10 8 19 > 24

Leveling Guide
Level Take
1 Monk - Martial Weapons // Dodge
2 Monk - Crane Style
3 Sorcerer - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard // Spell Focus: Conjuration
4 Sorcerer
5 Sorcerer - Weapon Focus: Fauchard
6 Dragon Disciple
7 Dragon Disciple - Outflank // Power Attack
8 Dragon Disciple
9 Dragon Disciple - Dazzling Display
10 Eldritch Knight - Shatter Defenses
11 Eldritch Knight - Improved Critical: Fauchard
12 Eldritch Knight
13 Eldritch Knight - Wings
14 Eldritch Knight - Crane Wing
15 Eldritch Knight - Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
16 Eldritch Knight
17 Eldritch Knight - Meta magic: Heightend Spell
18 Eldritch Knight - Crane Riposte
19 Eldritch Knight - Bull Rush
20 Sorcerer

Spell Priority
Level Spells
1 Grease, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike, Vanish
2 Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Blur, Sense Vitals, False Life
3 Displacement, Haste, Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch
4 Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, Dimension Door, Greater False Life
5 Echolocation, Hungry Pit, Cloudkill, Angelic Aspect
6 Greater Heroism, Chains of Light, Greater Dispel Magic
7 Legendary Proportions, Firebrand
8 Seamantle

Heighten Spells (Grease, Glitterdust, etc) for Levels 7 and 8.

References:

[1] https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/252382-pathfinder-kingmaker-definitive-edition/faqs/79613/character-creation

[2] https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/companion_builds/post6

[3] https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-kingmaker/guides/Unfair#comments

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u/LavishnessGood1863 — 5 days ago