u/LChris24

▲ 24 r/asoiaf

The Fate of Stannis Baratheon (Spoilers Extended)

Background

In this post, I thought it would be interesting to discuss one of the more interesting characters in the series (and one of my favorites), King Stannis I Baratheon and his fate.

If interested: "Fled to Dragonstone": The Schemes of Stannis Baratheon

  • Pure Iron

Donal Noye makes this observation, which I think shows that Stannis is not going to ever bend the knee:

>"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day." -ACOK, Jon I

and:

>"I have no quarrel with Renly, should he prove dutiful. I am his elder, and his king. I want only what is mine by rights. Renly owes me loyalty and obedience. I mean to have it. From him, and from these other lords." Stannis studied her face. "And what cause brings you to this field, my lady? Has House Stark cast its lot with my brother, is that the way of it?"
This one will never bend, she thought, yet she must try nonetheless. -ACOK, Catelyn III

and:

>"And if he yields?" Lord Tarly asked.
"Yields?" Lord Rowan laughed. "When Mace Tyrell laid siege to Storm's End, Stannis ate rats rather than open his gates." -ACOK, Catelyn IV

  • Gazing into the Flames

While this may be more metaphorical, Stannis gets a vision of a king being burned, but the fact remains the same Stannis' fate is not bending the knee, he will die a king:

>Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. -ASOS, Davos V

Potential Fates, Fate Locations, etc.

One (or more) of these options could align with how Stannis ends up in the book series (I go back and forth on what I think happens, the only thing I know is that it won't be 20 good men).

  • Defeated/Killed by Daenerys Targaryen

While inside the House of the Undying in Qarth, Dany gets a vision of what is likely Stannis:

>Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow -ACOK, Daenerys IV

this occurs in her "slayer of lies" vision, along with a vision of a cloth/mummer's dragon and a stone fire breathing beast:

> A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .  -ACOK, Daenerys IV

leading many readers to believe that Stannis was one of the lies (the true king of Westeros) that Dany was going to have to slay in her character arc.

  • The Night's King 2.0

This was reinforced a bit as in the next book (and Dany's final book before the abandoned 5 year gap) as Dany seemingly gets a vision of her in Rhaegar's position with the Usurper (who could be interpreted then as Stannis) at the head of ice army:

>That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened. -ASOS, Daenerys III

and while the legendary Night's King is not coming back, we could see some human character choose their side (he's going to break not bend).

>So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice. -ADWD, Jon III

If interested: The Night's King 2.0 & Shadows on the Wall

  • The Nightfort

The Nightfort is where Stannis plans to make his seat, I seem to think that GRRM intended more for this plotline before he abandoned the 5 year gap, but it still is a prime location for the sacrifice of Shireen.

>"The Nightfort is the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall," the king said. "That is where I intend to make my seat, whilst I fight this war." -ASOS, Samwell V

If interested: The Building Up of the Nightfort

  • Winterfell

The logistics of Stannis' sacrifice of Shireen are what really messes with what I think happens next. If Stannis is going to sacrifice her, she either needs to come to him, he goes to her, or they meet somewhere (like the Nightfort, which I mentioned above).

If interested: The Cost: Stannis' Ultimate Sacrifice

  • The Dreadfort

One wildcard that I have seen thrown out there is Stannis marching on the Dreadfort at some point after taking Winterfell. Stannis considers it before marching on Winterfell before listening to Jon.

The reader has been there before (Theon), but it should be noted that there are other Winterfell hostages (Old Nan, Beth Cassel, etc.) that could be there as well.

If interested: The Dreadfort

  • Brienne of Tarth

As I mentioned, with Shireen's upcoming death that we aren't going to see "twenty good men", that said it doesn't mean the show has no seeds of what may happen in the book series. Due to that, I felt it was necessary to mention Brienne, especially since it is one of her goals:

>The broad face was a pool of still water, giving no hint of what might live in the depths below. “Yes.”
“You mean to kill Stannis.”
Brienne closed her thick callused fingers around the hilt of her sword. The sword that had been his. “I swore a vow. Three times I swore. You heard me.”
...
"No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don't know . . . a kind of woman's courage. And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis." -ACOK, Catelyn V

  • Third Shadow (Baby?)

Stannis has used 2 shadow babies already (Renly/Cortney Penrose) but Mel notes:

>"Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . ."
". . . a horror." Davos retreated from her. "I want no part of you, my lady. Or your god. May the Seven protect me." -ASOS, Davos III

It is possible that some type of third shadow (white walker, dragon, shadow baby) is involved in Stannis' death.

If interested: The Shadows Come to Dance, My Lord

TLDR: Just a quick look into some of the factors that could be involved in the death of Stannis Baratheon (characters, location, etc).

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u/LChris24 — 1 day ago
▲ 19 r/asoiaf

Euron Greyjoy: An Heir Worthy of "Him" (Spoilers Extended)

>No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware. -AFFC, The Reaver

Background

Recently (somewhat), I have been looking back at some of the different abandoned/changed plotlines that have seemingly arisen out of the knowledge that the reader has gained from trips to the Cushing Library as well as the release of a 2003-2004 Outline of A Feast for Crows. Due to the change in plot for the Ironborn (originally all 3 of Euron, Victarion, Aeron would have gone to Slaver's Bay), I have posted/speculated on this area of the plot pretty heavily in the past. In this post I thought it would be interesting to focus on a singular line that is often debated about and that is just who is Euron referring to when he mentions: an heir worthy of "him".

If interested: Dead Branches in the Garden: Abandoned/Changed Plotlines of Ice & Fire

The June 2004 draft

In the June 2004 draft, Euron's stated plan was for Victarion to wed Dany:

>"You are my brother, are you not? Blood of my blood and older than Damphair. As I was Balon's heir, you are mine."
"What of your sons?"
"Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers. No, you shall follow me upon the Seastone Chair, brother... and your own sons shall one day follow you."
My own sons. " would need a wife to give me sons. I have no luck with wives."
"They were not worthy of you. The Drowned God cursed them, for he had a better bride in mind for one of your might, brother. When the kraken weds the dragon, let all the world beware." -AFFC June 2004, p815

Published

As you see, this portion of the chapter changed drastically from the draft:

>“A king must have a wife, to give him heirs. Brother, I have need of you. Will you go to Slaver’s Bay and bring my love to me?”
I had a love once too. Victarion’s hands coiled into fists, and a drop of blood fell to patter on the floor. I should beat you raw and red and feed you to the crabs, the same as I did her. “You have sons,” he told his brother.
“Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers.”
“They are of your body.”
“So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware.” -AFFC, The Reaver

An Heir Worthy of Him

While Euron has numerous bastards aboard his ship, the Silence one common thread in both the draft/published material is that they aren't in the equation, so what exactly is Euron talking about? The wording changes from the draft where Victarion's sons were not worthy of following him on the Seastone chair. Since in the draft Victarion was going to wed Dany as part of Euron's "plan", as we note the next section in the draft:

>Euron's gifts are poisoned, a voice inside him said, "A dragon, you say? And fair?"
"Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts," said Euron, "but you need not take my word for it. Come with me to Slaver's Bay, and behold her beauty for yourself."

whereas the gift in the published material is the Seastone Chair:

>“What dragon?” said Victarion, frowning.
“The last of her line. They say she is the fairest woman in the world. Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts … but you need not take my word for it, brother. Go to Slaver’s Bay, behold her beauty, and bring her back to me.”
“Why should I?” Victarion demanded.
“For love. For duty. Because your king commands it.” Euron chuckled. “And for the Seastone Chair. It is yours, once I claim the Iron Throne. You shall follow me as I followed Balon … and your own trueborn sons shall one day follow you.”
My own sons. But to have a trueborn son a man must first have a wife. Victarion had no luck with wives. Euron’s gifts are poisoned, he reminded himself, but still … -AFFC, The Reaver

Why the Change?

As u/gsteff notes in the post: Secrets of the Cushing Library: Daenerys, the Ironborn and Jaime, it seems like this change was likely due to how GRRM decide to use the Ironborn in the story. While in the drafts the Ironborn (and Euron primarily) were supposed to be Dany's villains, it has seemingly shifted to be more of a 3rd (and maybe 2nd too) Act villain.

  • Draft:

>"Slaver's Bay is a long way to row for some woman."
"Not for this woman," said Euron, "but the choice is yours, brother. Live a thrall of die a king. It might be that we can fly... but unless we leap, we'll never know."

  • Published:

>“The choice is yours, brother. Live a thrall or die a king. Do you dare to fly? Unless you take the leap, you’ll never know.”
Euron’s smiling eye was bright with mockery. “Or do I ask too much of you? It is a fearsome thing to sail beyond Valyria.” -

If interested: Euron Greyjoy's Changed Plotline

Who is "Him"?

From the above, it seems like the original intent wasn't for there to be a "him", but with the shift in plot for Euron, the possibility definitely exists. So let's take a look at who Euron is talking about..

  • Euron (himself)

A very likely scenario is that Euron is just referring to himself here. He is seemingly trying to become a god:

>"A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits" Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.” -TWOW, The Forsaken

and literally says this in the next sentence in the original quote:

>When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware

  • Quellon (and to a lesser extent Balon)

While Euron is on his apocalyptic godquest or whatever he has planned, it should still be noted he is not only human (as the Reader gets him in his feelings a bit), but also he is a son and a younger brother.

>Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood

  • Bloodraven

A very common theory due to the similarity in wording to Bran's chapters, is that Euron was a failed pupil (or not) of Bloodraven's (he may even have had his dragon egg). Not exactly sure how this would work, but thought it was worth mentioning (as I do believe Bloodraven at a minimum knows why/was likely somehow involved/potentially complicit in the return of the Others).

  • The Drowned God

Pretty unlikely imo, but at least worth mentioning. Also worth noting that the Drowned God is one of the dead gods that Aeron sees while tripping balls in the bowels of the Silence:

>And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. Then, Euron Crow’s Eye laughed again, and the priest woke screaming in the bowels of Silence, as piss ran down his leg. It was only a dream, a vision born of foul black wine.

  • The Night's King 2.0

While the Night's King is a legendary character, an embodiment of this character could exist in the main series (which would likely be Euron himself in this scenario, but there are other options).

>It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years

If interested: The Night's King 2.0

  • The Undying

Pretty unlikely imo. Euron was seemingly not only in Qarth early in the story, but he also captured warlocks/shade of the evening.

>"I mean to open your eyes." Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend's flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat."

That said Xaro claims the Undying are dead (remember Drogon burned their heart):

>"If a warlock's spell could kill me, I would be dead by now. I left their palace all in ashes." Drogon saved me when they would have drained my life from me. Drogon burned them all
...
"Who? The Pureborn? They have water in their veins. The Spicers? There are curds between their ears. And the Undying are all dead. You should have taken me to husband. I am almost certain that I asked you for your hand. Begged you, even." -ADWD, Daenerys III

If interested: The Forsaken: Holy Men & their Gods

  • Dark Deities

Also worth noting that Euron is about to perform some type of ritual sacrifice/summoning/claim. And while this is likely for krakens/a dragon there are other options as well:

>Theron's rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn. -TWOIAF, The Reach: Oldtown

and (obviously this could foreshadow just Euron as well):

>He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

If interested: Euron Greyjoy's Ritual Sacrifice: "The Summoning"

TLDR: Just a quick look at who Euron Greyjoy is referring to when he mentions "an heir worthy of him". This passage is changed from the 2004 draft where the plan was much different (for GRRM and the Ironborn), as it was changed who was going to Slaver's Bay as well as Euron's place as a villain in the series.

u/LChris24 — 3 days ago
▲ 12 r/asoiaf

House Yronwood, The Blackfyres & the Golden Company (Spoilers Extended)

Background

In this post, I thought it would be interesting to look into House Yronwood's ties with the House Blackfyre and the arrival of Young Griff and the Golden Company in ADWD.

House Yronwood & the Blackfyre Rebellions

One thing I like to note is when GRRM doubles down on a mention in the main series as well as in TWOIAF. For instance, he notes that only the male line of House Blackfyre was extinguished in both locations which could potentially lead somewhere with a Blackfyre ("Black Dragon") in the main series (if you've read any of my posts, my bet is on Young Griff).

He also does the same thing with regards to House Yronwood's support of the Blackfyre's. As he mentions it both:

>“No,” she said. “I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It’s home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions.” -AFFC, The Soiled Knight

and:

>Before Nymeria came, the Kings of Yronwood were the most powerful house in all of Dorne—far greater than the Martells of the time. They ruled half of Dorne—a fact that, to this day, the Yronwoods let no one forget. In the centuries after House Martell rose to the rule of Dorne, the Yronwoods have been the house likeliest to rebel, and have done so several times. Even after Prince Maron Martell united Dorne with the Iron Throne, this habit remained. Lords of Yronwood rode for the black dragon in no less than three of the five Blackfyre Rebellions. -TWOIAF, Dorne: Queer Customs of the South

If interested: List of Blackfyre Supporters in each Rebellion

House Yronwood & the Arrival of Young Griff/the Golden Company

  • House Yronwood Forces

While the pained relationship between the House Martell/Yronwood still exists:

>And of Yronwood, as well. The Wardens of the Stone Way remain the proudest and most powerful of House Martell's vassals, and theirs has been an uneasy relationship at best. -TWOIAF, Dorne: Queer Customs of the South

we should note that note only is House Yronwood the second most powerful house in Dorne, but Lord Anders Yronwood is currently sitting ahead of one of the two Dornish hosts:

>The best part of the Toland strength is with Lord Yronwood in the Boneway. 

  • Friends in Dorne

While most of the discussion is made about the Golden Company's "friends in the Reach", they also have potential friends in Dorne too besides just House Martell:

>"Not yet. Let King's Landing think this is no more than an exile lord coming home with some hired swords to reclaim his birthright. An old familiar story, that. I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne." That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell." -ADWD, The Griffin Reborn

and seeing as the Yronwoods were supporters of House Blackfyre in at least 3 of the 5 rebellions their potential friendship has to be at the front of the line.

  • House Martell & Support for Young Griff/The Golden Company

We currently have Arianne headed to Storm's End to treat with Young Griff/Jon Con and the Golden Company. While I currently expect Dorne to support Young Griff (they really don't have a choice), I would like to through a potential thought out there that I have considered.. If Dorne/House Martell doesn't completely side with Young Griff, Yronwood and his army will.

Other Notes

  • The Blood Debt

Due to Oberyn's involvement in the death of Edgar Yronwood, a blood debt was owed:

>When he was no more than sixteen, Prince Oberyn had been found abed with the paramour of old Lord Yronwood, a huge man of fierce repute and short temper. A duel ensued, though in view of the prince's youth and high birth, it was only to first blood. Both men took cuts, and honor was satisfied. Yet Prince Oberyn soon recovered, while Lord Yronwood's wounds festered and killed him. Afterward men whispered that Oberyn had fought with a poisoned sword, and ever thereafter friends and foes alike called him the Red Viper. -ASOS, Tyrion V

and:

>Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept." -AFFC, The Queenmaker

and:

>Quentyn had been fostered by Lord Anders of House Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, the son of Lord Ormond Yronwood and grandson of Lord Edgar. In his youth her uncle Oberyn had fought a duel with Edgar, had given him a wound that mortified and killed him. Afterward men called him ‘the Red Viper,’ and spoke of poison on his blade. The Yronwoods were an ancient house, proud and powerful. Before the coming of the Rhoynar they had been kings over half of Dorne, with domains that dwarfed those of House Martell. Blood feud and rebellion would surely have followed Lord Edgar’s death, had not her father acted at once. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. And in due time, Quentyn was given to Lord Anders to foster as a sign of trust. That helped to heal the breach between Sunspear and the Yronwoods -TWOW, Arianne I

  • Rivalry with House Fowler

A small note that could have some meaning is that the Yronwood's have a seemingly ancient:

>For nine years Mors Martell and his allies (amongst them House Fowler of Skyreach, House Toland of Ghost Hill, House Dayne of Starfall, and House Uller of the Hellholt) struggled against Yronwood and his bannermen (the Jordaynes of the Tor, the Wyls of the Stone Way, together with the Blackmonts, the Qorgyles, and many more), in battles too numerous to mention. -TWOIAF, Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

and current rivalry with House Fowler:

>Lord Fowler might be a safer choice. The Old Hawk, he was called. He had never gotten on with Anders Yronwood; there was bad blood between their Houses going back a thousand years, from when the Fowlers had chosen Martell over Yronwood during Nymeria's War. -AFFC, The Princess in the Tower

and that House Fowler is currently heading the other Dornish host:

>In the Boneway and the Prince’s Pass, two Dornish hosts had massed, and there they sat, sharpening their spears, polishing their armor, dicing, drinking, quarreling, their numbers dwindling by the day, waiting, waiting, waiting for the Prince of Dorne to loose them on the enemies of House Martell. Waiting for the dragons. For fire and blood. For me. One word from Arianne and those armies would march… so long as that word was dragon. If instead the word she sent was war, Lord Yronwood and Lord Fowler and their armies would remain in place. -TWOW, Arianne I

  • Return of the Big Man

While Lord Anders' son/heir Cletus died en route to Slaver's Bay with Quentyn:

>Quentyn lost two other friends that same day—Willam Wells with his freckles and his crooked teeth, fearless with a lance, and Cletus Yronwood, handsome despite his lazy eye, always randy, always laughing. Cletus had been Quentyn's dearest friend for half his life, a brother in all but blood. "Give your bride a kiss for me," Cletus had whispered to him, just before he died. -ADWD, The Merchant's Man

it should be noted that his nephew Ser Archibald, will potentially be returning to Dorne with Quentyn's bones. If interested: Back to Dorne: The Big Man & Drink

TLDR: House Yronwood is the second most powerful house in Dorne (after House Martell). They have supported the Blackfyres in at least 3 of their rebellions and historically have had an uneasy relationship with the Martells (as well as other houses like the Fowlers). The Yronwoods currently head one of the Dornish armies. I could see the Yronwoods supporting Young Griff/the Blackfyres no matter what the Martells do.

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u/LChris24 — 4 days ago
▲ 250 r/asoiaf

Jeyne Westerling: "Her Mother's Daughter" (Spoilers Extended)

>"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son." -ASOS, Tyrion III

Background

The Red Wedding was planned by Tywin Lannister (along with certain Freys, Roose Bolton, Sybell Spicer) but the plan was only able to be put in motion because of Robb's action at the Crag (wedding Jeyne) as the northerners plundered the Westerlands. This wedding happened because Robb Stark is Ned's son (in behavior), Tywin alludes that it was also able to happen because Jeyne Westerling is her "mother's daughter". In this post I thought it would be interesting to explore what exactly he meant by that.

If interested: Obvious in Retrospect: Example - The Red Wedding

His Father's Son

We see Ned choose the honorable choice over and over, except when he has to put someone else's honor above his own (such as Lyanna or Sansa). Robb emulates Ned when he made this decision:

>“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”
“He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?”
Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.

If interested: "Promise Me, Ned": The Dishonor of Ned Stark

Sybell Spicer

Now if we apply that same logic (Robb behaving like his father), lets take a look at what we know about Sybell.

Shes the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog:

>“A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne,” said Ser Kevan. “Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell’s grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he’d brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like.” He shrugged. “She’s long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I’ll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood …”

and:

>The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished. Younger sons would have been the best that Sybell Spicer's daughters could have hoped for in the ordinary course of events, but a nice fat pot of Lannister gold would make even a dead rebel's widow look attractive to some lord. "You'll have your marriages," said Jaime, "but Jeyne must wait two full years before she weds again." If the girl took another husband too soon and had a child by him, inevitably there would come whispers that the Young Wolf was the father. -AFFC, Jaime VII

and has some knowledge of herbs (even if Sybell was preventing):

>The girl smiled at that. "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning. I told Robb I'm sure to give him twins. An Eddard and a Brandon. He liked that, I think. We . . . we try most every day, my lady. Sometimes twice or more." The girl blushed very prettily. "I'll be with child soon, I promise. I pray to our Mother
Above, every night." -ASOS, Catelyn III

and she is disliked by some:

>"His natural daughter?" Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon. "You want a Westerling to wed a bastard?"
"No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better." Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace. Joy was a sweet child, albeit a lonely one; her father had been Jaime's favorite uncle. "Your daughter is worth ten of you, my lady. You'll leave with Edmure and Ser Forley on the morrow. Until then, you would do well to stay out of my sight." He shouted for a guardsman, and Lady Sybell went off with her lips pressed primly together. Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife's scheming. How much do we men ever know? -AFFC, Jaime VII

So What Happened?

While the timeline isn't completely known, Tywin began working with Sybell, note how fearful everyone is for the Westerlings for this betrayal:

>"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.
"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."
This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."
"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you." -ASOS, Tyrion III

and as Robb tells his mother:

>It is swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this, Robb? How could you be so heedless, so stupid? How could you be so . . . so very . . . young. Reproaches would not serve here, however. All she said was, "Tell me how this came to be."
"I took her castle and she took my heart." Robb smiled. "The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother."
Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. "And you wed her the next day." -ASOS, Catelyn III

so we can establish that Jeyne (it rhymes with pain) took Robb to her bed, nursed him and then they had sex once Robb found out about Bran/Rickon.

Thoughts

  • Like her mother, Jeyne probably wanted to rise in station in life and this is why she went along with the encouragement from her mother to "seduce" Robb

>And the Westerlings were impoverished. Younger sons would have been the best that Sybell Spicer's daughters could have hoped for in the ordinary course of events -AFFC, Jaime VII

  • The letter with the news from Winterfell (Bran/Rickon's "deaths") was likely read by the Crag maester first, and shared with others before being brought to Robb's sickbed, its likely the Westerlings knew as well and saw this chance
  • While Jeyne went along with the plot, she didn't expect to fall in love with Robb (and didn't know about the Red Wedding) as we see from the fallout in Jaime's AFFC chapters

>The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized.  -AFFC, Jaime VII

  • Maggy the Frog is Jeyne's great grandmother, it can be argued that similar to Cersei, Jeyne had her future told at one point and was told she would marry/fall in love with a king:

>"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.
"Never. You will wed the king." -AFFC, Cersei VIII

TLDR: Just some thoughts on how Jeyne Westerling "being Sybell Spicer's daughter" matches up with Robb Stark being his "father's son" in relation as to why Tywin Lannister was so confident about his plan for the Red Wedding/not worried about the Westerling "betrayal".

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u/LChris24 — 5 days ago
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The Status of the Iron Fleet (Spoilers Extended)

>He broke their chains himself and told them they were now free men and would have the privilege of rowing for the Iron Fleet, an honor that every boy in the Iron Islands dreamed of growing up. "The dragon queen frees slaves and so do I," he proclaimed. -ADWD, Victarion I

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to look into the status of the Iron Fleet as it rolls into Slaver's Bay for the Battle of Fire and discuss.

If interested: Ser Grandfather's Objectives in the Battle of Fire

The Iron Fleet

The Iron Fleet sets sail to Slaver's Bay with 93 out of the 100 ships that it had originally left Moat Cailin with:

>He had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet, a fleet belonging not to a single lord but to the Seastone Chair itself, captained and crewed by men from all the islands. Ships smaller than the great war dromonds of the green lands, aye, but thrice the size of any common longship, with deep hulls and savage rams, fit to meet the king's own fleets in battle. -ADWD, The Iron Suitor

and that they are larger longships crewed by experienced men:

>The common longship is small compared to our galleys, this is true, but the ironmen have larger ships as well. Lord Balon's Great Kraken and the warships of the Iron Fleet were made for battle, not for raids. They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained. The ironmen live their whole lives at sea." -AFFC, Cersei VII

of the 100, they lost one on the return from Moat Cailin to the Kingsmoot:

>But when the Damphair's summons came, the call to kingsmoot, then all was changed. Aeron speaks with the Drowned God's voice, Victarion reminded himself, and if the Drowned God wills that I should sit the Seastone Chair . . . The next day he gave command of Moat Cailin to Ralf Kenning and set off overland for the Fever River where the Iron Fleet lay amongst the reeds and willows. Rough seas and fickle winds had delayed him, but only one ship had been lost, and he was home.-AFFC, The Iron Captain

and 6 more in the taking of the shields (and while they captured more, it seems like they didn't take them with them to Slaver's Bay):

>The Iron Victory lingered for hours off the mouth of the Mander. As the greater part of the Iron Fleet got under way for Oakenshield, Victarion kept Grief, Lord Dagon, Iron Wind, and Maiden's Bane about him as a rear guard. They pulled survivors from the sea, and watched Hardhand sink slowly, dragged under by the wreck that she had rammed. By the time she vanished beneath the waters Victarion had the count he'd asked for. He had lost six ships, and captured eight-and-thirty. "It will serve," he told Nute. "To the oars. We return to Lord Hewett's Town." -The Reaver

and as they travel east they grab provisions/acquire 6 more ships:

>In the Stepstones they had taken on grain and game and fresh water, after the long voyage along the bleak and barren coast of Dorne with its shoals and whirlpools. There, the Iron Victory had captured a fat merchant ship, the great cog Noble Lady, on her way to Oldtown by way of Gulltown, Duskendale, and King's Landing, with a cargo of salt cod, whale oil, and pickled herring. The food was a welcome addition to their stores. Five other prizes taken in the Redwyne Straights and along the Dornish coast—three cogs, a galleas, and a galley—had brought their numbers to ninety-nine. -ADWD, The Iron Suitor

also worth noting that at one point the Fleet had more than 100 ships, as the remaining ships in the Fever River are put to the torch:

>The Ryswells and the Dustins had surprised the ironmen on the Fever River and put their longships to the torch. -ADWD, Davos II

The Split

In the Stepstones, Victarion splits the Ironborn ships into 3 groups aiming to meet up off the coast of the Isle of Cedars:

>Nine-and-ninety ships had left the Stepstones in three proud fleets, with orders to join up again off the southern tip of the Isle of Cedars. Forty-five had now arrived on the far side of the world. Twenty-two of Victarion's own had straggled in, by threes and fours, sometimes alone; fourteen of Ralf the Limper's; only nine of those that had sailed with Red Ralf Stonehouse. Red Ralf himself was amongst the missing. To their number the fleet had added nine new prizes taken on the seas, so the sum was fifty-four … but the captured ships were cogs and fishing boats, merchantmen and slavers, not warships. In battle, they would be poor substitutes for the lost ships of the Iron Fleet. -ADWD, The Iron Suitor

and picked the place for "godly" reasons:

>So many drowned men, the Drowned God will be strong there, Victarion had thought when he chose the island for the three parts of his fleet to join up again. He was no priest, though. What if he had gotten it backwards? Perhaps the Drowned God had destroyed the island in his wroth. His brother Aeron might have known, but the Damphair was back on the Iron Islands, preaching against the Crow’s Eye and his rule. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair. Yet the captains and kings had cried for Euron at the kingsmoot, choosing him above Victarion and other godly men.

but he does second guess his decision:

>They had come a long way since. Victarion could talk to the dusky woman. She never attempted to talk back. "Grief is the last," he told her, as she eased his glove off. "The rest are lost or late or sunk." He grimaced as the woman slid the point of her knife beneath the soiled linen wound about his shield hand. "Some will say I should not have split the fleet. Fools. Nine-and-ninety ships we had … a cumbersome beast to shepherd across the seas to the far end of the world. If I'd kept them together, the faster ships would have been held hostage to the slowest. And where to find provisions for so many mouths? No port wants so many warships in their waters. The storms would have scattered us, in any case. Like leaves strewn across the Summer Sea."

  • Group #1: Corsair's Road (led by Red Ralf)

The fastest ships Victarion gives to Ralf Stonehouse:

>Instead he had broken the great fleet into squadrons, and sent each by a different route to Slaver's Bay. The swiftest ships he gave to Red Ralf Stonehouse to sail the corsair's road along the northern coast of Sothoryos. The dead cities rotting on that fervid, sweltering shore were best avoided, every seamen knew, but in the mud-and-blood towns of the Basilisks Isles, teeming with escaped slaves, slavers, skinners, whores, hunters, brindled men, and worse, there were always provisions to be had for men who were not afraid to pay the iron price.

  • Group #2: Lys (Ralf the Limper)

The larger shower ships were used to sell slaves:

>The larger, heavier, slower ships made for Lys, to sell the captives taken on the Shields, the women and children of Lord Hewett's Town and other islands, along with such men who decided they would sooner yield than die. Victarion had only contempt for such weaklings. Even so, the selling left a foul taste in his mouth. Taking a man as thrall or a woman as a salt wife, that was right and proper, but men were not goats or fowl to be bought and sold for gold. He was glad to leave the selling to Ralf the Limper, who would use the coin to load his big ships with provisions for the long slow middle passage east.

  • Group #3 (Led by Victarion)

>His own ships crept along the shores of the Disputed Lands to take on food and wine and fresh water at Volantis before swinging south around Valyria. That was the most common way east, and the one most heavily trafficked, with prizes for the taking and small islands where they could shelter during storms, make repairs, and renew their stores if need be.

Arriving at the Isle of Cedars/Captives

Group Leaving the Stepstones Isle of Cedars
Victarion 33 22
Ralf the Limper 33 14
Red Ralf Stonehouse 33 9
Total 99 45

Each group arrives in smaller numbers to the designated meeting place, with stragglers seemingly rolling in over time:

>The last ship to appear had been the Maiden's Bane, three days previous. The day before that, three ships had come out of the south together—his captive Noble Lady, lumbering along between Ravenfeeder and Iron Kiss. But the day before and the day before there had been nothing, and only Headless Jeyne and Fear before that, then two more days of empty seas and cloudless skies after Ralf the Limper appeared with the remnants of his squadron. Lord Quellon, White Widow, Lamentation, Woe, Leviathan, Iron Lady, Reaper's Wind, and Warhammer, with six more ships behind, two of them storm-wracked and under tow.
"Storms," Ralf the Limper had muttered when he came crawling to Victarion. "Three big storms, and foul winds between. Red winds out of Valyria that smelled of ash and brimstone, and black winds that drove us toward that blighted shore. This voyage was cursed from the first. The Crow's Eye fears you, my lord, why else send you so far away? He does not mean for us to return."
Victarion had thought the same when he met the first storm a day out of Old Volantis. The gods hate kinslayers, he brooded, elsewise Euron Crow's Eye would have died a dozen deaths by my hand. As the sea crashed around him and the deck rose and fell beneath his feet, he had seen Dagon's Feast and Red Tide slammed together so violently that both exploded into splinters. My brother's work, he'd thought. Those were the first two ships he'd lost from his own third of the fleet. But not the last.

and out of the 93 ships that sail, only 54 (including 9 additions) arrive at first:

>"Fifty-four," he grumbled. It would have been too much to hope for the full strength of the Iron Fleet after a voyage of such length … but seventy ships, even eighty, the Drowned God might have granted him that much. Would that we had the Damphair with us, or some other priest. Victarion had made sacrifice before setting sail, and again in the Stepstones when he split the fleet in three, but perhaps he had said the wrong prayers. That, or the Drowned God has no power here. More and more, he had come to fear that they had sailed too far, into strange seas where even the gods were queer … but such doubts he confided only to his dusky woman, who had no tongue to repeat them.

but they choose to leave 1 ship (Shark) behind to wait for stragglers:

>When Grief appeared, Victarion summoned Wulfe One-Ear. "I will want words with the Vole. Send word to Ralf the Limper, Bloodless Tom, and the Black Shepherd. All hunting parties are to be recalled, the shore camps broken up by first light. Load as much fruit as can be gathered and drive the pigs aboard the ships. We can slaughter them at need. Shark is to remain here to tell any stragglers where we've gone." She would need that long to make repairs; the storms had left her little more than a hulk. That would bring them down to fifty-three, but there was no help for it. "The fleet departs upon the morrow, on the evening tide."
"As you command," said Wulfe, "but another day might mean another ship, lord Captain."
“Aye. And ten days might mean ten ships, or none at all. We have squandered too many days waiting on the sight of sails. Our victory will be that much the sweeter if we win it with a smaller fleet.” And I must needs reach the dragon queen before the Volantenes.

Additions

Victarion bemoans the numbers, but still plans the attack:

>“Four-and-fifty ships is too few,” he told the dusky woman, “but I can wait no longer. The only way”—He grunted as she peeled the bandage off, tearing a crust of scab as well. The flesh beneath was green and black where the sword had sliced him.—“the only way to do this is to take the slavers unawares, as once I did at Lannisport. Sweep in from the sea and smash them, then take the girl and race for home before the Volantenes descend upon us.” Victarion was no craven, but no more was he a fool; he could not defeat three hundred ships with fifty-four. “She’ll be my wife, and you will be her maid.” A maid without a tongue could never let slip any secrets.

but as they approach the begin to acquire more ships:

>By any name, the priest had powers. "The coastline here runs west to east," he told Victarion. "Where it turns north, you will come on two more hares. Swift ones, with many legs."
And so it came to pass. This time the prey proved to be a pair of galleys, long and sleek and fast. Ralf the Limper was the first to sight them, but they soon outdistanced Woe and Forlorn Hope, so Victarion sent Iron Wing, Sparrowhawk, and Kraken's Kiss to run them down. He had no swifter ships than those three. The pursuit lasted the best part of the day, but in the end both galleys were boarded and taken, after brief but brutal fights. They had been running empty, Victarion learned, making for New Ghis to load supplies and weapons for the Ghiscari legions encamped before Meereen … and to bring fresh legionaries to the war, to replace all the men who'd died. "Men slain in battle?" asked Victarion. The crews of the galleys denied it; the deaths were from a bloody flux. The pale mare, they called it. And like the captain of the Ghiscari Dawn, the captains of the galleys repeated the lie that Daenerys Targaryen was dead.

and:

>Three more prizes were taken before Yaros dwindled off their sterns. A fat galleas fell to the Vole and Grief, and a trading galley to Manfryd Merlyn of Kite. Their holds were packed with trade goods, wines and silks and spices, rare woods and rarer scents, but the ships themselves were the true prize. Later that same day, a fishing ketch was taken by Seven Skulls and Thrall’s Bane. She was a small, slow, dingy thing, hardly worth the effort of boarding. Victarion was displeased to hear that it had taken two of his own ships to bring the fishermen to heel. Yet it was from their lips that he heard of the black dragon’s return. “The silver queen is gone,” the ketch’s master told him. “She flew away upon her dragon, beyond the Dothraki sea.”

and:

>The galley he renamed the Slaver’s Scream. With her, the ships of the Iron Fleet numbered one-and-sixty. “Every ship we capture makes us stronger,” Victarion told his ironborn, “but from here it will grow harder. On the morrow or the day after, we are like to meet with warships. We are entering the home waters of Meereen, where the fleets of our foes await us. We will meet with ships from all three Slaver Cities, ships from Tolos and Elyria and New Ghis, even ships from Qarth.” He took care not to mention the green galleys of Old Volantis that surely must be sailing up through the Gulf of Grief even as he spoke. “These slavers are feeble things. You have seen how they run before us, heard how they squeal when we put them to the sword. Every man of you is worth twenty of them, for only we are made of iron. Remember this when first we next spy some slaver’s sails. Give no quarter and expect none. What need have we of quarter? We are the ironborn, and two gods look over us. We will seize their ships, smash their hopes, and turn their bay to blood.” -ADWD, Victarion I

we then find out that Victarion plans to send the captured ships ahead:

>The Noble Lady was a tub of a ship, as fat and wallowing as the noble ladies of the green lands. Her holds were huge, and Victarion packed them with armed men. With her would sail the other, lesser prizes that the Iron Fleet had taken on its long voyage to Slaver’s Bay, a lubberly assortment of cogs, great cogs, carracks, and trading galleys salted here and there with fishing boats. It was a fleet both fat and feeble, promising much in the way of wool and wines and other trade goods and little in the way of danger. Victarion gave the command of it to Wulf One-Ear.
“The slavers may shiver when they spy your sails rising from the sea,” he told him. “but once they see you plain they will laugh at their fears. Traders and fishers, that’s all you are. Any man can see that. Let them get close as they like, but keep your men hidden belowdecks until you are ready. Then close, and board them. Free the slaves and feed the slavers to the sea, but take the ships. We will have need of every hull to carry us back home.” -TWOW, Victarion I

and:

>he stood at the prow of the Iron Victory watching One-Ear’s merchant ships vanish one by one into the west

# of Captured Ships
Prior to Isle of Cedars 9
After Isle of Cedars 7
Total 16

If you like posts about ships:

TLDR: The Iron Fleet leaves the Stepstones with 99 ships which Victarion breaks into 3 groups. Of these 99 ships only 45 arrive at their meeting spot. They do manage to add 16 more vessels that they plan to use as a decoy for their attack in Slaver's Bay. One ship (Shark) remains on the Isle of Cedars (in terrible condition) to repair and wait for any stragglers. 55 ships (including Red Ralf Stonehouse) are currently missing.

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u/LChris24 — 7 days ago
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>"Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place," he told her afterward. "My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness . . . during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks." She looked so miserable that Jaime almost found himself wanting to comfort her. -ASOS, Jaime VII

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to take a look at the most disloyal/unruly vassals/bannermen for each of the regions of Westeros. Sometimes a House can be unmanageable in general, other times it is just during a certain time period or due to a certain person.

If interested: By Siege or Storm, A Look at Attacks on the Great Castles of Westeros

  • The North - House Stark (House Bolton)

>The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed. -TWOIAF, The North: The Kings of Winter

  • The Westerlands - House Lannister (House Reyne/Tarbeck)

>This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."
"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you." -ASOS, Tyrion III

  • The Reach - House Tyrell (House Florent, etc.)

>If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. -ASOS, Sansa I

and:

>It was not their royal blood that made Aegon Targaryen choose to name the Tyrells as Lords of Highgarden, Wardens of the South, and Lords Paramount of the Reach after King Mern IX, the last of the Gardener kings, died, along with all his sons, upon the Field of Fire. Those honors were won by the prudence of Harlan Tyrell, who opened the gates of Highgarden at Aegon's approach and pledged himself and his family to House Targaryen.

>Afterward, a number of the other great houses of the Reach complained bitterly about being made vassals of an "upjumped steward" and insisted that their own blood was far nobler than that of the Tyrells. It cannot be denied that the Oakhearts of Old Oak, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Peakes of Starpike, and the Redwynes of the Arbor all had older and more distinguished lineages than the Tyrells, and closer blood ties to House Gardener as well. Their protests were of no avail, however...mayhaps in part because all these houses had taken up arms against Aegon and his sisters on the Field of Fire, whereas the Tyrells had not. -TWOIAF, The Reach: House Tyrell

  • The Riverlands - House Tully (House Frey)

While the Freys were never kings:

>Afterward, Aegon named Edmyn Tully of Riverrun, first of the riverlords to declare for the Targaryens, the Lord Paramount of the Trident, reducing the other riverlords to vassals -TWOIAF, The Riverlands

Walder Frey spites those he deems to look down on him:

>Your lord father did not come to the wedding. An insult, as I see it. Even if he is dying. He never came to my last wedding either. He calls me the Late Lord Frey, you know. Does he think I'm dead? I'm not dead, and I promise you, I'll outlive him as I outlived his father. Your family has always pissed on me, don't deny it, don't lie, you know it's true. Years ago, I went to your father and suggested a match between his son and my daughter. Why not? I had a daughter in mind, sweet girl, only a few years older than Edmure, but if your brother didn't warm to her, I had others he might have had, young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted. No, Lord Hoster would not hear of it. Sweet words he gave me, excuses, but what I wanted was to get rid of a daughter. -AGOT, Catelyn IX

  • Dorne - House Martell (House Yronwood)

>And of Yronwood, as well. The Wardens of the Stone Way remain the proudest and most powerful of House Martell's vassals, and theirs has been an uneasy relationship at best.
Before Nymeria came, the Kings of Yronwood were the most powerful house in all of Dorne—far greater than the Martells of the time. They ruled half of Dorne—a fact that, to this day, the Yronwoods let no one forget. In the centuries after House Martell rose to the rule of Dorne, the Yronwoods have been the house likeliest to rebel, and have done so several times. Even after Prince Maron Martell united Dorne with the Iron Throne, this habit remained. Lords of Yronwood rode for the black dragon in no less than three of the five Blackfyre Rebellions.-TWOIAF, Dorne: Queer Customs of the South

and:

>Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions. -AFFC, The Soiled Knight

and:

>Blood feud and rebellion would surely have followed Lord Edgar's death, had not her father acted at once. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. And in due time, Quentyn was given to Lord Anders to foster as a sign of trust. That helped to heal the breach between Sunspear and the Yronwoods,-TWOW, Arianne I

  • The Vale - House Arryn (House Royce)

At least during the events of the main story:

>From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn's bannermen resented Lysa's marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. -ASOS, Sansa VII

  • The Stormlands - House Baratheon - (???)

None stood out explicitly for me, so some potential examples include the Lords who stayed loyal to the crown during Robert's Rebellion (Fell, Grandison, Cafferen):

>It was when he'd first come home to call his banners. Lords Grandison, Cafferen, and Fell planned to join their strength at Summerhall and march on Storm's End, but he learned their plans from an informer and rode at once with all his knights and squires. As the plotters came up on Summerhall one by one, he defeated each of them in turn before they could join up with the others. He slew Lord Fell in single combat and captured his son Silveraxe." -ASOS, Davos V

House Swann's actions during the War of the Five Kings:

>The Swanns were Marcher lords, proud, powerful, and cautious. Pleading illness, Lord Gulian Swann had remained in his castle, taking no part in the war, but his eldest son had ridden with Renly and now Stannis, while Balon, the younger, served at King's Landing. If he'd had a third son, Tyrion suspected he'd be off with Robb Stark. It was not perhaps the most honorable course, but it showed good sense; whoever won the Iron Throne, the Swanns intended to survive. -ACOK, Tyrion XI

or I guess you could argue Cortney Penrose.

  • The Iron Islands - House Greyjoy (???)

Since most of the dysfunction in the Iron Islands is within House Greyjoy we don't see many factions that are disloyal in general. Although there was likely some disloyalty to Vickon before his son removed the Seven from the Islands.

TLDR: Just a list of each of the original 8 Great Houses and their most disloyal/untrustworthy bannermen.

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u/LChris24 — 9 days ago
▲ 13 r/asoiaf

Background

In this post, I thought it would be interesting to discuss Barristan's objectives for Team Dany in the Battle of Fire. Due to some unexpected arrivals, these objectives seemingly change over the course of the siege and subsequent battle.

If interested:

Objective: Defend Mereen Against the Slavers

With Daenerys off in the Dothraki Sea, Barristan assumes charge of Dany's forces as the siege continues. This changes with the arrival of the Male Pare and the corpses that are being flung into the city:

>Even if their best hope proved to be forlorn hope, Selmy knew that he had no other choice. He might have held Meereen for years against the Yunkai'i, but he could not hold it for even a moon's turn with the pale mare galloping through its streets. -TWOW, Barristan I

If interested: The Slaver Alliance Nicknames

New Objective #1: Allow Unsullied to Form Rank/Bring Down the Trebuchets

In order to stop the corpses from being flung into Meereen, Barristan attacks the trebuchets:

>These attacks should distract the Yunkai’i long enough for Grey Worm to march the Unsullied out the gate and form up.” That was where his plan would rise or fall, he knew. If the Yunkish commanders had any sense, they would send their horse thundering down on the eunuchs before they could form ranks, when they were most vulnerable. His own cavalry would have to prevent that long enough for the Unsullied to lock shields and raise their wall of spears. 

and:

>The girl figures Selmy means to bring down all the trebuchets."
"It's what I'd do in his place," Ser Jorah said. "Only I would have done it sooner." -TWOW, Tyrion II

If interested: The Battle of Fire: Attacking the Six Sisters

  • Sub-Objectives: Kill nobles, Free Hostages

In addition to bringing down the trebuchets, Barristan also notes the following:

>"You know our plan of attack," the white knight said, when the captains were gathered around him. "We will hit them first with our horse, as soon as the gate is opened. Ride hard and fast, straight at the slave soldiers. When the legions form up, sweep around them. Take them from behind or from the flank, but do not try their spears. Remember your objectives."
"The trebuchet," said the Widower. "The one the Yunkai'i call Harridan. Take it, topple it, or burn it."
Jokin nodded. "Feather as many of their nobles as we can. And burn their tents, the big ones, the pavilions." -TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Tell him that I sent you, that I speak with the queen’s voice. Tell him that we’ll pay his price if he delivers us our hostages, unharmed and whole.”

Achievements:

We see:

  • Trebuchets come crashing down:

>The Ghost is already down. Marselen’s freedmen broke the Long Lances like a rotten stick and dragged it over with chains. -TWOW, Tyrion II

  • Unsullied forming rank:

A major goal is to allow the unsullied to march out:

>“At the sound of my horn, Grey Worm will advance in line and roll up the slavers and their soldiers. It may be that one or more Ghiscari legions will march out to meet them, shield to shield and spear to spear. That battle we shall surely win.”

and:

>We are too few to win the battle. We ride to make chaos, to buy the Unsullied time enough to make their spear wall, we—

  • Nobles being killed:

From a fan summary of TWoW Barristan II:

>- He cuts the head off of one of the herons and his lads join the fray. Dany’s horse knocks a heron into three others and they all fall over. In a moment, the herons are scattering and running away, led by the Little Pigeon himself. Unfortunately for the Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says “I came for blood, not gold” and knocks in the Little Pigeon’s head with his mace, splattering blood all over Barristan and Dany’s silver horse.

If interested: Barristan's Lads: The Red Lamb

  • Hostages being freed:

While we don't get confirmation, we see the Windblown turn their cloaks:

>A column of mounted men flashed past the Harridan, flying the blue banners of the Windblown. -TWOW, Tyrion II

and:

>"Gorzhak zo Eraz lies slain, cut down by Pentoshi treachery. The turncloak who names himself the Prince of Tatters shall die screaming for this infamy, the noble Morghar swears." Brown Ben scratched at his beard.
"The Windblown have gone over, have they?" he said, in a tone of mild interest. -TWOW, Tyrion II

If interested: The Hostages of the Slaver Alliance

The Missed Chance for the Slavers

Barristan's goal was to keep the slaver's occupied so the Unsullied could form up and he even notes what the Slaver should do:

>That was where his plan would rise or fall, he knew. If the Yunkish commanders had any sense, they would send their horse thundering down on the eunuchs before they could form ranks, when they were most vulnerable. His own cavalry would have to prevent that long enough for the Unsullied to lock shields and raise their wall of spears. 

which they do at least attempt to do:

>"The Unsullied are advancing toward the Harpy's Daughter," the messenger announced. "Bloodbeard and two Ghiscari legions stand against them. Whilst they hold the line, you are to sweep around behind the eunuchs and take them in the rear, sparing none. This by the command of the most noble and puissant Morghar zo Zherzyn, supreme commander of the Yunkai'i." -TWOW, Tyrion I

and:

>- The unsullied begin marching through the gates, and Barristan sees that the Yunkai’i have missed their chance to effectively launch a counterattack. As he watches more of the slave legions get slaughtered, mostly those who were chained together and could not retreat, he wonders where the sellsword companies like the treacherous Second Sons have gone. The unsullied finish lining up outside the gates, implacable even when one of their own number falls with a crossbow bolt to the neck. -TWOW, Barristan II (fan summary)

The Arrival of the Ironborn

Throughout all of available Battle of Fire chapters we see the potential threat of the Ironborn growing:

>- The chapter ends with Tyrion winning the cyvasse game 6 turns in advance and Brown Ben disregarding a messenger. The messenger finally mentions that there are massive amounts of ships in the Bay and the worry is that they are Volantene ships. Jorah bursts in and points out that they aren't Yunkish or Volantene but kraken ships flying dragon banners (or ships with kraken and dragon banners)

  • TWoW, Tyrion II

After Tyrion hears about the arrival from Jorah in TWoW, Tyrion I he thinks on them a bit in his second chapter:

>Tyrion could not see them from here, but he could hear the sounds: the crash of hull against hull as ships slammed together, the deep-throated warhorns of the ironborn and queer high whistles of Qarth, the splintering of oars, the shouts and battle cries, the crash of axe on armor, sword on shield, all mingled with the shrieks of wounded men.
...
Tyrion did try, but it seemed to him that the sounds of slaughter were growing louder, and his tongue would not be held. “Pudding Face wants to use the company to throw the ironmen back into the sea,”
...
Your ships are sinking, burning, fleeing, thought Tyrion. Your ships are being taken, your men put to the sword. He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, close by the Iron Islands; ironborn reavers were no strangers to their shores. Over the centuries they had burned Lannisport at least thrice and raided it two dozen times. Westermen knew what savagery the ironborn were capable of; these slavers were just learning.

The Hammer & the Anvil

The Hammer & the Anvil was one of the major parts of the Battle of the Redgrass Field:

>"I'd always heard that it was Baelor Breakspear who won the battle," said Dunk. "Him and Prince Maekar."
"The hammer and the anvil?"
...
Prince Baelor's hammerblow against the rebel rear, the Dornishmen all screaming as they filled the air with spears -The Sworn Sword

and likely due to that it is a concept, that Tyrion understands well:

>"The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture." -ACOK, Tyrion V

which is why Tyrion seemingly mentions the concept of being caught between the two:

>We have ironborn swarming ashore and Ser Barristan and his Unsullied pouring out the city gates, with us between them, fighting on the wrong bloody side. I am terrified myself.” -TWOW, Tyrion II

and Barristan later emphasizes:

>Tumco draws Barristan’s attention to the bay, asking “Why are there so many ships?” Barristan remembers that yesterday there were twenty, but now there are thrice that many. His heart sinks when he reasons that the ships from Volantis must have arrived, but then sees that some of the ships are crashing together.
He asks Tumco, whose young eyes can see more clearly, to identify the banners. Tumco says “Squids, big squids. Like in the Basilisk Isles, where sometimes they drag whole ships down.” Barristan replies, “Where I’m from, we call them krakens.”
Realizing that the Greyjoys have arrived, his first thought is “Has Balon joined with Joffrey, or the Starks?” But he realizes that he’s heard that Balon is dead, and wonders if this has something to do with the Balon’s son, the boy who was a ward of the Starks. He sees that ironmen are coming ashore, fighting the Yunkish, and says, surprised, “They are on our side!” The sellswords did not come to meet his charge because they were already preoccupied with the ironborn!
Barristan is almost gleeful. “It’s like Baelor Breakspear and Prince Maekar, the hammer and the anvil. We have them! We have them!”
...

[GRRM pointed out that these were, of course, Victarion's men and made a comment about Tyrion currently being quite miserable.] -TWoW, Barristan II

and while some of the sellswords were likely preoccupied with the Ironborn (others have either been defeated like the Long Lances or have switched sides: Windblown/Second Sons).

TLDR: While this will likely change once again once the dragonhorn is blown, the objectives for Barristan (and Team Dany) have slowly shifted over time. At first he wanted to defend Meereen, but the trebuchets flinging corpses have changed that. Barristan leads an attack to allow the unsullied to form up and bring down these trebuchets and this is going well (along with the secondary objectives of freeing hostages/killing Yunkai nobles) before the Ironborn arrive allowing them to put pressure on the Slaver's on two fronts.

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u/LChris24 — 10 days ago
▲ 16 r/asoiaf

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to focus on/discuss a couple subjects that may be more than casually linked and that is the Targaryens marrying into House Tarth and Brienne's descent of Ser Duncan the Tall.

If interested: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: Anything/Everything Dunk & Egg

House Tarth & the Targaryens

I think the biggest clue here could be the fact that it is "more recently":

>Later, other monarchs preferred to dock their fleets on the western shore of Tarth, where that great island’s mountains helped to shelter them from the storms that often raged through the narrow sea. The Sapphire Isle, as some call it, is ruled by House Tarth of Evenfall Hall—an old family of Andal descent that boasts of ties to the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and more recently to House Targaryen. Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves “the Evenstar,” a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days. -TWOIAF, The Stormlands

which somewhat cuts it down:

  • Daella/Rhaelle (Egg's Sisters)

We know that Rhaelle (Egg's daughter) was how the Baratheons received theirs:

>Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl -AFFC, Samwell IV

but we don't know what happened with Egg's sisters and their children:

>Will I talk with Egg again, find Daeron whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children?

and:

>once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella." -The Sworn Sword

but it should be noted that when we look to the Targaryen family tree, there are no husbands listed for them. So GRRM either hadn't fleshed this out yet, wanted to keep it hidden or they don't have one.

If interested: Rhae/Daella & their Children

  • Maegor Brightflame

Also we can consider Aerion's son Maegor:

>Aerion Brightfire’s son was born in 232 AC, and given the ominous name of Maegor by his sire, but the Bright Prince himself died that same year when he drank a cup of wildfire in the belief that it would allow him to transform himself into a dragon. -TWOIAF

and:

>In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King’s Landing. With both of Maekar’s elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron’s sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame’s son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father’s cruelty and madness

If interested: Aerion Brightflame: Connecting the Dots

  • Potential Descendants of Duncan the Small/Jenny

We know of none, but I thought it was at least worth mentioning:

>Aegon's eldest son Duncan, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, was the first to defy him. Though betrothed to a daughter of House Baratheon of Storm's End, Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long- vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch. -TWOIAF

If interested: Everything We Know: Jenny of Oldstones and Jenny's Song

  • Vaella

Another potential option for this valyrian blood is Daeron's daughter Vaella who (besides the family tree in the Appendix) is only mentioned twice:

>Prince Daeron sired a daughter, Vaella, in 222 AC, but the girl sadly proved simple. -TWOIAF

and:

>In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King’s Landing. With both of Maekar’s elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron’s sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame’s son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father’s cruelty and madness -TWOIAF

If interested: The Blood of Old Valyria Part I: List of Current Characters

  • House Tarth Known Members

Outside of Brienne we have the following recent named members of House Tarth:

>Brienne's Immediate Family:
- Lord Selwyn (and deceased unnamed wife)
- Dead Siblings: Galladon, Arianne, Alysanne

Unknown Relation:
- Ser Endrew Tarth (Night's Watch - killed on the Bridge of Skulls)

Recent History:
- Ser Quentyn Tarth (Ashford Meadow)

Duncan the Tall and Brienne of Tarth

  • GRRM on Dunk's Descendants

Going back to before AFFC even existed, readers had asked GRRM this question:

>I asked GRRM if we'd met one of Dunk's descendants in the SoIaF, and he said Yes. I didn't ask him who, because I'd rather find out by reading or reason, only I'm lousy at the reasoning part and want to make you guys do it for me. -SSM, Mysterious Galaxy Signing: 8 Nov 2000

and he later (after AFFC was published) mentioned how he gave a "strong hint" (and note how even back then readers suspected Brienne):

>Asked if he'll ever tell which character is Dunk's descendent. Got a rather acerbic, "I gave a pretty strong hint in the new book," to which I sheepishly replied "Yea, but I read it real fast, in three days."" I told him I suspected Brienne but thought that she was too obvious and that he'd be more subtle than that and he said, "You think?" Coy bastard. -SSM, US Signing Tour: 10 Nov 2005

and years later he mentioned that we would find out at some point:

>At BaltiCon, fan Kristen Reed Treado asked, "Will we ever learn how Brienne descends from Dunk?"
GRRM: "Eventually. All will be revealed in time." -SSM, Wertzone: 16 May 2016

If interested: Possible Bastards of Ser Duncan the Tall & "Love Interests" for each Dunk & Egg Novella

  • The "Strong Hint" from AFFC

GRRM mentioned how he felt he left a "pretty strong hint" in AFFC as to Dunk's potential descendant. While there are some other potential options, none of them are as strong as the shield Brienne has repainted in Duskendale (to cover up a Lothston shield). She sees this door:

>The captain’s sister was not hard to find. The Seven Swords was the largest inn in town, a four-story structure that towered over its neighbors, and the double doors on the house across the way were painted gorgeously. They showed a castle in an autumn wood, the trees done up in shades of gold and russet. Ivy crawled up the trunks of ancient oaks, and even the acorns had been done with loving care. When Brienne peered more closely, she saw creatures in the foliage: a sly red fox, two sparrows on a branch, and behind those leaves the shadow of a boar.
“Your door is very pretty,” she told the dark-haired woman who answered when she knocked. -AFFC, Brienne II

and it reminds her of Tarth:

>The arms of Tarth were quartered rose and azure, and bore a yellow sun and crescent moon. But so long as men believed her to be a murderess, Brienne dare not carry them. “Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father’s armory.” She described the arms as best she could recall them.

and so she gets a similar shield:

>The captain's sister found her in the common room, drinking a cup of milk and honey with three raw eggs mixed in. "You did beautifully," she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father's armory. She remembered how she'd run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star. -AFFC, Brienne II

to what Dunk gets done by Tanselle:

>"An elm tree," said Egg. "A big elm tree, like the one by the pool, with a brown trunk and green branches."
"Yes," Dunk said. "That would serve. An elm tree . . . but with a shooting star above. Could you do that?" -The Hedge Knight

  • Season I of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

We get some more potential evidence for this from Season I of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms:

If interested: A 'Knight of the Seven Kingdoms' Scene Hints Dunk Is Related to Brienne (Business Insider Article - paywalled)

Connecting the Two Events

We have a)House Targaryen with "ties" to Tarth and Duncan a potential ancestor of Brienne. Are there any connections here between these two events?

Some Potential Options/Thoughts:

  • Dunk impregnating one of Egg's sisters and her subsequently marrying into House Tarth
  • Dunk knocking up someone in House Tarth during a visit to the Stormlands, maybe as part of a novella: Dunk & Egg: "The Champion" and at the same time a marriage is announced
  • Worth noting that it says recent "ties" and not marriages

TLDR: House Tarth has recent "ties" to House Targaryen. GRRM has also confirmed that Dunk has descendants in the ASOIAF universe (as well as mentioning he left a "pretty big hint" in AFFC) and when asked about the relationship between Dunk and Brienne he stated that "all would be explained". It is possible these two events are linked.

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u/LChris24 — 12 days ago
▲ 12 r/asoiaf

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to take a look at a theory that has been around for a while but I have never dove into it very far and that is Barristan riding Dany's silver during the Battle of Fire is foreshadowing of his death (mounting the pale mare).

The Pale Mare

The first mention of the pale mare comes as a warning from Quaithe:

>Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." -ADWD, Daenerys II

before a rider appears from Astapor:

>Grey Worm began the tale. "He came out of the morning mists, a rider on a pale horse, dying. His mare was staggering as she approached the city gates, her sides pink with blood and lather, her eyes rolling with terror. Her rider called out, 'She is burning, she is burning,' and fell from the saddle. -ADWD, Daenerys V

bringing the bloody flux:

>“This thing is true, Your Grace,” the eunuch confirmed. “The pale mare was bloody from his spur.”
“That may be so, Your Radiance,” said Ezzara, “but this blood was mingled with his stool. It stained his smallclothes.”
“He was bleeding from the bowels,” said Galazza Galare.
“We cannot be certain,” said Ezzara, “but it may be that Meereen has more to fear than the spears of the Yunkai’i.”
“We must pray,” said the Green Grace. “The gods sent this man to us. He comes as a harbinger. He comes as a sign.”
“A sign of what?” asked Dany.
“A sign of wroth and ruin.”
She did not want to believe that. “He was one man. One sick man with an arrow in his leg. A horse brought him here, not a god.” A pale mare. -ADWD, Daenerys V

and we hear about what happened in Astapor:

>"Afterward the Green Grace was impaled upon a stake in the Plaza of Punishment and left until she died. In the pyramid of Ullhor, the survivors had a great feast that lasted half the night, and washed the last of their food down with poison wine so none need wake again come morning. Soon after came the sickness, a bloody flux that killed three men of every four, until a mob of dying men went mad and slew the guards on the main gate."
The old brickmaker broke in to say, "No. That was the work of healthy men, running to escape the flux."- ADWD, Daenerys V

causing people to flee to Meereen:

>My children. "They are coming here for help. For succor and protection. We cannot turn our backs on them."
Ser Barristan frowned. "Your Grace, I have known the bloody flux to destroy whole armies when left to spread unchecked. The seneschal is right. We cannot have the Astapori in Meereen."
Dany looked at him helplessly. It was good that dragons did not cry. "As you say, then. We will keep them outside the walls until this … this curse has run its course. Set up a camp for them beside the river, west of the city. We will send them what food we can. Perhaps we can separate the healthy from the sick." All of them were looking at her. "Will you make me say it twice? Go and do as I've commanded you." Dany rose, brushed past Brown Ben, and climbed the steps to the sweet solitude of her terrace. -ADWD, Daenerys V

and:

>"I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and afraid, but never sick.
"Even so," the old knight said, "I would feel better if Your Grace would return to the city." The many-colored brick walls of Meereen were half a mile back. "The bloody flux has been the bane of every army since the Dawn Age. Let us distribute the food, Your Grace." -ADWD, Daenerys VI

The Spread to Meereen

We see it spread through Meereen:

>"Too many dead," Aggo said. "They should be burned."
"Who will burn them?" asked Ser Barristan. "The bloody flux is everywhere. A hundred die each night." -ADWD, Daenerys VI

and:

>The Astapori had no place to go. Thousands remained outside Meereen's thick walls—men and women and children, old men and little girls and newborn babes. Many were sick, most were starved, and all were doomed to die. Daenerys dare not open her gates to let them in. She had tried to do what she could for them. She had sent them healers, Blue Graces and spell-singers and barber-surgeons, but some of those had sickened as well, and none of their arts had slowed the galloping progression of the flux that had come on the pale mare. Separating the healthy from the sick had proved impractical as well. Her Stalwart Shields had tried, pulling husbands away from wives and children from their mothers, even as the Astapori wept and kicked and pelted them with stones. A few days later, the sick were dead and the healthy ones were sick. Dividing the one from the other had accomplished nothing. -ADWD, Daenerys VI

and:

>Galazza Galare awaited them outside the temple doors, surrounded by her sisters in white and pink and red, blue and gold and purple. There are fewer than there were. Dany looked for Ezzara and did not see her. Has the bloody flux taken even her? Though the queen had let the Astapori starve outside her walls to keep the bloody flux from spreading, it was spreading nonetheless. Many had been stricken: freedmen, sellswords, Brazen Beasts, even Dothraki, though as yet none of the Unsullied had been touched. She prayed the worst was past. -ADWD, Daenerys VII

and:

>And the Blue Graces had never come, though he'd sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now. -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

and:

>They rose when Ser Barristan came down the marble steps, Skahaz Shavepate at his side. Marselen of the Mother's Men was present, with Symon Stripeback, commander of the Free Brothers. The Stalwart Shields had chosen a new commander, a black-skinned Summer Islander called Tal Toraq, their old captain, Mollono Yos Dob, having been carried off by the pale mare. Grey Worm was there for the Unsullied, attended by three eunuch serjeants in spiked bronze caps. The Stormcrows were represented by two seasoned sellswords, an archer named Jokin and the scarred and sour axeman known simply as the Widower. The two of them had assumed joint command of the company in the absence of Daario Naharis. Most of the queen's khalasar had gone with Aggo and Rakharo to search for her on the Dothraki sea, but the squinty, bowlegged jaqqa rhan Rommo was there to speak for the riders who remained. -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

The Slaver Alliance

The sickness is spreading amongst the Slavers as well:

>"The Yunkai'i grow weaker as well. The bloody flux has taken hold amongst the Tolosi, it is said, and spread across the river to the third Ghiscari legion."
The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles. "I cannot rely on plague to save me from my enemies. Set Pretty Meris free. At once." -ADWD, Daenerys VIII

and:

>From here he could see four lesser pyramids, the city's western walls, and the camps of the Yunkishmen by the shores of Slaver's Bay, where a thick column of greasy smoke twisted upward like some monstrous serpent. The Yunkishmen burning their dead, he realized. The pale mare is galloping through their siege camps. Despite all the queen had done, the sickness had spread, both within the city walls and without. Meereen's markets were closed, its streets empty. King Hizdahr had allowed the fighting pits to remain open, but the crowds were sparse. The Meereenese had even begun to shun the Temple of the Graces, reportedly. -ADWD, The Kingsguard

as we see the master who bought Tyrion contract it:

>The healer entered the tent murmuring pleasantries, but one sniff of the foul air and a glance at Yezzan zo Qaggaz put an end to that. “The pale mare,” the man told Sweets.
What a surprise, Tyrion thought. Who could have guessed? Aside from any man with a nose and me with half of one. Yezzan was burning with fever, squirming fitfully in a pool of his own excrement. His shit had turned to brown slime streaked with blood … and it fell to Yollo and Penny to wipe his yellow bottom clean. Even with assistance, their master could not lift his own weight; it took all his failing strength to roll onto one side.
“My arts will not avail here,” the healer announced. “The noble Yezzan’s life is in the hands of the gods. Keep him cool if you can. Some say that helps. Bring him water.” Those afflicted by the pale mare were always thirsty, drinking gallons between their shits. “Clean fresh water, as much as he will drink.”-ADWD, Tyrion XI

and:

>But much and more can change in two days. Two days ago Nurse had been hale and healthy. Two days ago Yezzan had not heard the pale mare's ghostly hoofbeats. Two days ago the fleets of Old Volantis had been two days farther off. And now … -ADWD, Tyrion XI

and Tyrion poisons Nurse making it look like he got the sickness:

>"Sweet fresh water didn't help Nurse." Poor old Nurse. Yezzan's soldiers had tossed him onto the corpse wagon last night at dusk, another victim of the pale mare. When men are dying every hour, no one looks too hard at one more dead man, especially one as well despised as Nurse. Yezzan's other slaves had refused to go near the overseer once the cramps began, so it was left to Tyrion to keep him warm and bring him drinks. Watered wine and lemonsweet and some nice hot dogtail soup, with slivers of mushroom in the broth. Drink it down, Nursey, that shitwater squirting from your arse needs to be replaced. The last word Nurse ever said was, "No." The last words he ever heard were, "A Lannister always pays his debts." -ADWD, Tyrion XI

and:

>It would have been too cruel to say so, however. Instead Tyrion said, "Yezzan's special slaves did not escape the pale mare. They're dead, the lot of them. Sweets was the first to go." Their mammoth master had died on the day of their escape, Brown Ben Plumm had told him. Neither he nor Kasporio nor any of the other sellswords knew the fate of the denizens of Yezzan's grotesquerie … but if Pretty Penny needed lies to stop her mooning, lie to her he would. "If you want to be a slave again, I will find you a kind master when this war is done, and sell you for enough gold to get me home," Tyrion promised her. "I'll find you some nice Yunkishman to give you another pretty golden collar, with little bells on it that will tinkle everywhere you go. First, though, you will need to survive what's coming. No one buys dead mummers." -ADWD, Tyrion XII

"Riding the Pale Mare"

Different Phrasing

It is common to refer to those who get the bloody flux as "mounting the pale mare" as we see different forms of this phrasing over and over:

>The pale mare does not carry off every rider. The master will recover." -ADWD, Tyrion XI

and:

>"The mule died," said Tyrion. "So did Nurse, poor man. And now Yezzan himself has mounted the pale mare, and six of his soldiers have the shits. -ADWD, Tyrion XI

and:

>"Yezzan has more urgent matters to concern him than three missing slaves. He's riding the pale mare. And why should they think to look for us here? You have swords enough to discourage anyone who comes nosing round. A small risk for a great gain." -ADWD, Tyrion XI

and:

>Beneath her veils, the Green Grace sighed. "The peace that we worked so hard to forge flutters like a leaf in an autumn wind. These are dire days. Death stalks our streets, riding the pale mare from thrice-cursed Astapor. Dragons haunt the skies, feasting on the flesh of children. Hundreds are taking ship, sailing for Yunkai, for Tolos, for Qarth, for any refuge that will have them. The pyramid of Hazkar has collapsed into a smoking ruin, and many of that ancient line lie dead beneath its blackened stones. The pyramids of Uhlez and Yherizan have become the lairs of monsters, their masters homeless beggars. My people have lost all hope and turned against the gods themselves, giving over their nights to drunkenness and fornication." -ADWD , The Queen's Hand

and:

>Now once again the market was a scene of carnage, though these dead came riding the pale mare. By day Meereen's brick streets showed half a hundred hues, but night turned them into patchworks of black and white and grey. Torchlight shimmered in the puddles left by the recent rains, and painted lines of fire on the helms and greaves and breastplates of the men. -TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Tired or sick? Tyrion knelt beside her pallet. "You look pale." He felt her brow. Is it hot in here, or does she have a touch of fever? He dared not ask that question aloud. Even hard men like the Second Sons were terrified of mounting the pale mare. If they thought Penny was sick, they would drive her off without a moment's hesitation. They might even return us to Yezzan's heirs, notes or no notes. "I have signed their book. The old way, in blood. I am now a Second Son." -ADWD, Tyrion XII

Attack on the Trebuchets

Due to the Slaver Alliance flinging diseased corpses into Meereen, Barristan makes the decision to attack:

>Out beyond the city walls, the distant thump of a trebuchet releasing could be heard. Dead men and body parts came spinning down out of the night. One crashed amongst the pit fighters, showering them with bits of bone and brain and flesh. Another bounced off the Chainmaker's weathered bronze head and tumbled down his arm to land with a wet splat at his feet. A swollen leg splashed in a puddle not three yards from where Selmy sat waiting on his queen's horse.
"The pale mare," murmured Tumco Lho. His voice was thick, his dark eyes shiny in his black face. Then he said something in the tongue of the Basilisk Isles that might have been a prayer.
He fears the pale mare more than he fears our foes, Ser Barristan realized. His other lads were frightened too. Brave as they might be, not one was blooded yet.-TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Even if their best hope proved to be forlorn hope, Selmy knew that he had no other choice. He might have held Meereen for years against the Yunkai'i, but he could not hold it for even a moon's turn with the pale mare galloping through its streets. -TWOW, Barristan I

If interested: The Battle of Fire: Attacking the Six Sisters

Barristan & Dany's Silver

If we remember Dany's horse:

>She was a young filly, spirited and splendid. Dany knew just enough about horses to know that this was no ordinary animal. There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

Barristan decides to use it:

>Ser Barristan Selmy rode past them slowly. The old knight wore the armor his queen had given him—a suit of white enameled steel, inlaid and chased with gold. The cloak that streamed from his shoulders was as white as winter snow, as was the shield slung from his saddle. Beneath him was the queen's own mount, the silver mare Khal Drogo had given her upon their wedding day. That was presumptuous, he knew, but if Daenerys herself could not be with them in their hour of peril, Ser Barristan hoped the sight of her silver in the fray might give heart to her warriors, reminding them of who and what they fought for. Besides, the silver had been years in the company of the queen's dragons, and had grown accustomed to the sight and scent of them. That was not something that could be said for the horses of their foes. -TWOW, Barristan I

Barristan & the Pale Mare

Now I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with Barristan getting sick, just that Barristan is going to die. He has "mounted the pale mare" (Dany is the only other rider and she seemingly doesn't get sick). Some other quotes that could foreshadow:

Barristan is riding out of Meereen toward the Slavers:

>The Stranger had mounted his pale mare and was riding toward them with his sword in hand, but Tyrion Lannister did not care to meet with him again. Not now. Not yet. Not this day. -TWOW, Tyrion II

From a fan summary of TWoW, Barristan II:

>- He cuts the head off of one of the herons and his lads join the fray. Dany’s horse knocks a heron into three others and they all fall over. In a moment, the herons are scattering and running away, led by the Little Pigeon himself. Unfortunately for the Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says “I came for blood, not gold” and knocks in the Little Pigeon’s head with his mace, splattering blood all over Barristan and Dany’s silver horse. -TWOW, Barristan II

If interested: TWoW Barristan II: A Combination of Fan Summaries, Etc.

Barristan as a POV

Barristan was created as a POV as a solution to a problem (The Meereenese Knot). We also know that GRRM plans to kill plenty of POVs in TWoW ("take your bets"). Now that this problem has been "solved", I wonder how long GRRM plans to keep Barristan around.. There are great theories about him joining Young Griff, but it also should be noted that GRRM has 3-4 POVs in the same area (Barristan/Tyrion/Victarion). This is usually what happens when someone dies (he has other POVs around to pick up the story).

If interested: The New Commander if Barristan Dies During the Battle of Fire..

TLDR: A known theory, but just some thoughts on how Barristan riding Dany's silver is technically him riding a "pale mare" which could foreshadow his death in the upcoming Battle of Fire.

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u/LChris24 — 13 days ago
▲ 23 r/asoiaf

Background

I posted somewhat recently about how due to numerous comments made by GRRM we should expect the number of POVs to drop off sharply in TWoW. In this post I want to discuss something else that we should likely expect from the book, and that is what it will be focused on due to where certain characters are at in their story arcs. Some stories are much further along than others and due to that, even with the Battles of Ice/Fire being the focus of the opening of the book, the rest of the book is going to lean heavily on Slaver's Bay/Dothraki Sea and Dany's return to Westeros as well as Stannis' attack on Winterfell and seemingly return to the Wall (and possibly Nightfort).

If interested: Timeline of Chapters for the Opening TWoW Battles

Getting Dany Back to Westeros

GRRM needs to get Daenerys back to Westeros. The problem is he keeps creating new plotlines in the way in Essos. Sure a couple can easily be caused by dragonflame, but why create so many new ones in ADWD if the solution was just to burn them all to the ground before she returns?

Obviously some of these story arcs can be told from the surviving POVs from the Battle of Fire (between Tyrion and Victarion/Barristan) and not just Daenerys, but the point is that they are going to all take time and space (some more than others) in a book without much of it.

Stannis' Plotline

GRRM has spent so much time showing how slow Stannis' army has moved toward Winterfell (although the terrain between the Crofter's Village and Winterfell isn't that bad). We have Theon/Asha as POV for the area (and potentially an incoming Davos at some point). That said GRRM needs to show/relay the events of:

Stannis will also need to return to Castle Black, send for Shireen or meet them at the Nightfort and this event involving Shireen I expect to be one the darkest points in an extremely dark book.

If interested: The Cost: Stannis' Ultimate Sacrifice

Other Plotlines

Obviously there will be plenty of other things happening in TWoW as well but many plotlines will likely just have a few chapters due to the point in the storyline (Jon Con/Arianne) or just how much they affect the story (Bran/Jon). There are currently 20 POVs (19 confirmed) for TWoW and as I mentioned, many will likely die but I would guess most of the chapters we get are Dany/Tyrion (and Victarion/Barristan) and Asha/Theon (and potentially Melisandre/Davos based on Stannis' location).

TLDR: Even after the Battles of Ice/Fire open the book, the meat of TWoW is going to be about Dany's return to Westeros and Stannis' attack on Winterfell /subsequent decision to burn Shireen.

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u/LChris24 — 14 days ago
▲ 26 r/asoiaf

I love the name "The Red Lamb" (a former slave who is a Lhazarene). It seemingly throws back the insult at the Dothraki:

>Ser Jorah said the people of this country named themselves the Lhazareen, but the Dothraki called them haesh rakhi, the Lamb Men. Once Dany might have taken them for Dothraki, for they had the same copper skin and almond-shaped eyes. Now they looked alien to her, squat and flat-faced, their black hair cropped unnaturally short. They were herders of sheep and eaters of vegetables, and Khal Drogo said they belonged south of the river bend. The grass of the Dothraki sea was not meant for sheep. -AGOT, Daenerys VII

and:

>The Dothraki horselords call the Lhazarene the Lamb Men. When you shear them, all they do is bleat. They are not a martial people." -ADWD, Daenerys III

and since Barristan's Lads are probably my favorite character group in Slaver's Bay (and the main ones I want to survive the Battle of Fire), I loved that Barristan chose to knight him (and a few others before the battle):

>Larraq and Tumco were his best. After them the Lhazarene, the one the other boys called Red Lamb, though as yet that one was all ferocity and no technique. Perhaps the brothers too, three lowborn Ghiscari enslaved to pay their father's debts.

and:

>As he watched them at their drills, Ser Barristan pondered raising Tumco and Larraq to knighthood then and there, and mayhaps the Red Lamb too. It required a knight to make a knight, and if something should go awry tonight, dawn might find him dead or in a dungeon. Who would dub his squires then? On the other hand, a young knight's repute derived at least in part from the honor of the man who conferred knighthood on him. It would do his lads no good at all if it was known that they were given their spurs by a traitor, and might well land them in the dungeon next to him. They deserve better, Ser Barristan decided. Better a long life as a squire than a short one as a soiled knight.

and:

>Ser Barristan took two of his new-made knights with him down into the dungeons. Grief and guilt had been known to drive good men into madness, and Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater had both played roles in their friend's demise. But when they reached the cell, he told Tum and the Red Lamb to wait outside whilst he went in to tell the Dornish that the prince's agony was over. -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

The Battle of Fire

Basically the reason for the post, the Red Lamb not only carries a warhorn for Barristan:

>With him rode three of his lads. Tumco Lho carried the three-headed dragon banner of House Targaryen, red on black. Larraq the Lash bore the white forked standard of the Kingsguard: seven silver swords encircling a golden crown. To the Red Lamb Selmy had given a great silver-banded warhorn, to sound commands across the battlefield. His other boys remained at the Great Pyramid. They would fight another day, or not at all. Not every squire was meant to be a knight. It was the hour of the wolf. The longest, darkest hour of the night. For many of the men who had assembled in the market square, it would be the last night of their lives.

but in TWoW he drops two pretty badass lines in each of Barristan's sample chapters so far:

  • TWOW, Barristan I - The Great Shepherd

>"I am not afraid." The Red Lamb's voice was loud, almost to the point of shouting. "Should I die, I will go before the Great Shepherd of Lhazar, break his crook across my knee, and say to him, Why did you make your people lambs, when the world is full of wolves?' Then I will spit into his eye." -TWOW, Barristan

  • TWOW, Barristan II - Blood not Gold

While this is only available in summary we do get a pretty good quote from the Red Lamb:

> - He cuts the head off of one of the herons and his lads join the fray. Dany’s horse knocks a heron into three others and they all fall over. In a moment, the herons are scattering and running away, led by the Little Pigeon himself. Unfortunately for the Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says “I came for blood, not gold” and knocks in the Little Pigeon’s head with his mace, splattering blood all over Barristan and Dany’s silver horse.

If interested: TWoW Barristan II: A Combination of Fan Summaries, Etc.

TLDR: The Red Lamb is a knighted former slave. In both of Barristan's sample chapters he has a pretty cool line regarding the god of his people (The Great Shepherd) and after while killing the LIttle Pigeon ("I came for blood not gold").

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u/LChris24 — 15 days ago
▲ 17 r/asoiaf

>The girl figures Selmy means to bring down all the trebuchets."
"It's what I'd do in his place," Ser Jorah said. "Only I would have done it sooner." -TWOW, Tyrion II

Background

The Slaver Alliance has six trebuchets that they are launching Meereen with (diseased corpses). In this post I thought it would be interesting to look at Barristan's plan to take down the trebuchets in the Battle of Fire.

If interested: The Slaver Alliance Nicknames

The Six Sisters

Our first mention of the trebuchets comes as the Yunkai began to amass their siege:

>The Yunkai'i were even bringing in wood by sea. Behind their ditches, they were building catapults, scorpions, tall trebuchets. On still nights she could hear the hammers ringing through the warm, dry air. No siege towers, though. No battering rams. They would not try to take Meereen by storm. They would wait behind their siege lines, flinging stones at her until famine and disease had brought her people to their knees. -ADWD, Daenerys VII

and that they have six trebuchets surrounding 3 sides of the city:

>The dry, scorched plains around Meereen were flat and bare and treeless for long leagues, but the Yunkish ships had brought lumber and hides up from the south, enough to raise six huge trebuchets. They were arrayed on three sides of the city, all but the river side, surrounded by piles of broken stone and casks of pitch and resin just waiting for a torch.

and as Tyrion arrives in Slaver's Bay, we are given the names of the six:

>One of the soldiers walking along beside the cart saw where Tyrion was looking and proudly told him that each of the trebuchets had been given a name: Dragonbreaker, Harridan, Harpy's Daughter, Wicked Sister, Ghost of Astapor, Mazdhan's Fist. Towering above the tents to a height of forty feet, the trebuchets were the siege camp's chief landmarks. "Just the sight of them drove the dragon queen to her knees," he boasted. "And there she will stay, sucking Hizdahr's noble cock, else we smash her walls to rubble." -ADWD, Tyrion X

as well as his master's camp's location with regards to the Harridan and Wicked Sister:

>Their master's camp was south and east of the Harridan, almost in its shadow, and spread over several acres. -ADWD, Tyrion X
...
The nearest well was south and west of the Harridan, so they set off in that direction, -ADWD, Tyrion XI
...
Tyrion picked up his pails. “This way, then.”
Penny wrinkled her brow. “No. It’s to the left.” She pointed. “That’s the Harridan there.”
“And that’s the Wicked Sister.” Tyrion nodded in the other direction. -ADWD, Tyrion XI

Barristan's Plans

The Alliance starts to fling corpses:

>Ser Barristan was on his feet at once. “What is it?”
“The trebuchets,” the Shavepate growled. “All six.”
Galazza Galare rose. “Thus does Yunkai make reply to your offers, ser. I warned you that you would not like their answer.”
They choose war, then. So be it. Ser Barristan felt oddly relieved. War he understood. “If they think they will break Meereen by throwing stones—”
“Not stones.” The old woman’s voice was full of grief, of fear. “Corpses.” -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

and:

>Through the gloom of night the dead men flew, raining down upon the city streets. The riper corpses would fall to pieces in the air, and burst when they came smashing down onto the bricks, scattering worms and maggots and worse things. Others would bounce against the sides of pyramids and towers, leaving smears of blood and gore to mark the places where they’d struck.
Huge as they were, the Yunkish trebuchets did not have the range to throw their grisly burdens deep into the city. Most of the dead were landing just inside the walls, or slamming off barbicans, parapets, and defensive towers. With the six sisters arrayed in a rough crescent around Meereen, every part of the city was being struck, save only the river districts to the north. No trebuchet could throw across the width of the Skahazadhan.-TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Out beyond the city walls, the distant thump of a trebuchet releasing could be heard. Dead men and body parts came spinning down out of the night. One crashed amongst the pit fighters, showering them with bits of bone and brain and flesh. Another bounced off the Chainmaker's weathered bronze head and tumbled down his arm to land with a wet splat at his feet. A swollen leg splashed in a puddle not three yards from where Selmy sat waiting on his queen's horse. -TWOW, Barristan I

so Barristan begins to plan to attack and bring down the trebuchets:

>Even if their best hope proved to be forlorn hope, Selmy knew that he had no other choice. He might have held Meereen for years against the Yunkai’i, but he could not hold it for even a moon’s turn with the pale mare galloping through its streets. -TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Every man of you will have a part to play, so every man must be in readiness at all times, day or night. We will destroy our foes or be destroyed ourselves." He raised a hand to signal to his waiting squires. "I have had some maps prepared to show the dispositions of our foes, their camps and siege lines and trebuchets. If we can break the slavers, their sellswords will abandon them. I know you will have concerns and questions. Voice them here. By the time we leave this table, all of us must be of a single mind, with a single purpose." -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

and states one of their objectives:

>"You know our plan of attack," the white knight said, when the captains were gathered around him. "We will hit them first with our horse, as soon as the gate is opened. Ride hard and fast, straight at the slave soldiers. When the legions form up, sweep around them. Take them from behind or from the flank, but do not try their spears. Remember your objectives."
"The trebuchet," said the Widower. "The one the Yunkai'i call Harridan. Take it, topple it, or burn it."
Jokin nodded. "Feather as many of their nobles as we can. And burn their tents, the big ones, the pavilions." -TWOW, Barristan I

If interested: Ser Barristan's Lads

Destroying the Ghost of Astapor

We find out that the Ghost of Astapor was destroyed:

>Across the city at other gates others forces had assembled. Tal Toraq and his Stalwart Shields had gathered by the eastern gate, sometimes called the hill gate or the Khyzai gate, since travelers bound for Lhazar via the Khyzai Pass always left that way. Marselen and the Mother’s Men had massed beside the south gate, the Yellow Gate. The Free Brothers and Symon Stripeback had drawn the north gate, fronting on the river. They would have the easiest egress, with no foe before them but a few ships. The Yunkishmen had placed two Ghiscari legions to the north, but they were camped across the Skahazadhan, with the whole width of the river between them and the walls of Meereen. -TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>The Ghost is already down. Marselen’s freedmen broke the Long Lances like a rotten stick and dragged it over with chains. -TWOW, Tyrion II

Barristan and the Harridan

Barristan is seemingly making for the Harridan:

>"The trebuchet," said the Widower. "The one the Yunkai'i call Harridan. Take it, topple it, or burn it." -TWOW, Barristan I

and:

>Ser Grandfather is making for the Harridan, but she's afraid he'll turn toward Wicked Sister next. -TWOW, Tyrion I

we also find out that the Windblown have seemingly turned their cloak and come back to Team Dany as well:

>After days spent hidden inside musty tents of the Second Sons, the outside air smelled fresh and clear. Though he could not see the bay from where he stood, the tang of salt told him it was near. Tyrion filled his lungs with it. A fine day for a battle. From the east the sound of drumming rolled across the parched plain. A column of mounted men flashed past the Harridan, flying the blue banners of the Windblown. -TWOW, Tyrion I

and from summaries of TWOW, Barristan II, we get a bit more information:

>- Dany’s horse is easily outpacing the lads and the rest of the cavalry; Barristan is pleased because he intends to outrun the Widower and strike the first blow. The Yunkai’i are totally unprepared and Barristan closes in on the Harridan, the largest of the trebuchets.

>- Barristan has reached the Harridan, but a Ghiscari legion six thousand strong has lined up to protect the huge trebuchet. They are six ranks deep -- the first rank kneels and holds their spears pointing out and up, the second rank stands and holds their spears out at waist height, and and the third rank holds the spears out on their shoulders. The rest have small throwing spears and are ready to step forward when their comrades fall.

>- Barristan knows that a maester’s chain is only as strong as his weakest link, and identifies the companies of the Yunkish lords as the weakest of his immediate foes, certainly weaker than the slave legions. In particular, Barristan targets the Little Pigeon and his herons. The slaves chosen to be herons were freakishly tall before they were put on stilts, and wear pink scales and feathers and steel beaks. But Barristan sees that they will be blind because of the dawn rising over the city, and like to break ranks easily, so Barristan turns away from the legion guarding the trebuchet at the last minute and heads for the herons.

If interested: TWoW Barristan II: A Combination of Fan Summaries, Etc.

The Wicked Sister

The Second Sons gets one set of orders commanding them to defend the Wicked Sister as Barristan might attack it after the Haridan:

>"We are commanded to defend the Wicked Sister," Brown Ben informed them. The other men exchanged uneasy glances. No one seemed to want to speak until Ser Jorah asked, "On whose authority?"
"The girl's. Ser Grandfather is making for the Harridan, but she's afraid he'll turn toward Wicked Sister next. The Ghost is already down. Marselen's freedmen broke the Long Lances like a rotten stick and dragged it over with chains. -TWOW, Tyrion I

which the Second Sons seem to think is pretty dumb:

>"Crossbows is how you hold the Wicked Sister," Inkpots said. "Scorpions. Mangonels. That's what's needed. You do not use mounted men to defend a fixed position. Does the girl mean for us to dismount? If so, why not use her spears or slingers?" -TWOW, Tyrion I

and it is also the one that Rhaegal catches corpses from:

>The green beast was circling above the bay, banking and turning as longships and galleys clashed and burned below him, but it was the white dragon the sellswords were gawking at. Three hundred yards away the Wicked Sister swung her arm, chunk-THUMP, and six fresh corpses went dancing through the sky. Up they rose, and up, and up. Then two burst into flame.
The dragon caught one burning body just as it began to fall, crunching it between his jaws as pale fires ran across his teeth. White wings cracked against the morning air, and the beast began to climb again. The second corpse caromed off an outstretched claw and plunged straight down, to land amongst some Yunkish horsemen. Some of them caught fire too. One horse reared up and threw his rider. The others ran, trying to outrace the flames and fanning them instead. Tyrion Lannister could almost taste the panic as it rippled out across the camps.-TWOW, Tyrion I

The Harpy's Daughter

Another Yunkai nobleman informs the Second Sons that the Unsullied are now advancing toward another trebuchet:

>"The Unsullied are advancing toward the Harpy's Daughter," the messenger announced. "Bloodbeard and two Ghiscari legions stand against them. Whilst they hold the line, you are to sweep around behind the eunuchs and take them in the rear, sparing none. This by the command of the most noble and puissant Morghar zo Zherzyn, supreme commander of the Yunkai'i." -TWOW, Tyrion I

Mazdhan's Fist/Dragonbreaker

These two trebuchets are not mentioned by name outside of the initial quote, but due to some of the general information, we can at least try and understand their location. We know how the Alliance has setup the trebuchets:

  • the Wicked Sister and Harridan are closer to each other based on Tyrion's description of Yezzan's camp
  • Marselen left through the South Gate to attack the Ghost of Astaphor
  • Barristan is trying to gain enough time so that the Unsullied can march out the gate, but they are seemingly able to advance on the Harpy's Daughter

we also get this as well which is likely about the Harridan but gives a bit more location:

>The main Yunkish camp lay to the west, between the walls of Meereen and the warm green waters of Slaver’s Bay. Two of the trebuchets had risen there, one beside the river, the second opposite Meereen’s main gates, defended by two dozen of Yunkai’s Wise Masters, each with his own slave soldiers. Between the great siege engines were the fortified encampments of two Ghiscari legions. The Company of the Cat had its camp between the city and the sea. The foe had Tolosi slingers too, and somewhere out in the night were three hundred Elyrian crossbowmen. -TWOW, Barristan I

so they second one might be the Harpy's Daughter.

TWoW, Tyrion I

From TWoW, Tyrion I we get a bit of information on the trebuchets (it seems they set the scene for the chapter with the constant sound of them):

  • The chapter opens with Brown Ben playing cyvasse with Tyrion as the trebuchets fling corpses over the walls. Ben is edgy not at his best while Tyrion is extremely confident during the game
  • Tyrion says you can tell which of the six sisters is launching based on sound (description of bodies flying through the air and arms separating), Brown Ben is more worried/disturbed about the pale mare
  • The overall atmosphere among the commanders in the Second Sons felt very tense, they lash out at Tyrion’s wits and Tyrion is sort of the comedic relief for Plumm.  There is worry that the hostages (Daario, Hero, Jhogo) might be loaded on the trebuchets
  • THUMP THUMP THUMP - GRRM read this chapter after reading TWoW, Victarion I (it seems in each chapter he is using sound to help create the setting of a battle for the reader as he uses the drums (BOOM) of the Iron Fleet in that chapter) If interested: Timeline of Chapters for the Opening TWoW Battles

If interested: TWoW Tyrion I: A Combination of Fan Summaries, Etc.

Cyvasse

Worth noting that the trebuchet is a piece in the game cyvasse:

>Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it. Last game he had brought her out too soon and lost her to a trebuchet. "If we do meet these fabled pirates, I may join up with them. I'll tell them that my name is Hugor Halfmaester." He moved his light horse toward Haldon's mountains. -ADWD, Tyrion IV

If interested: Cyvasse: "Rules", Foreshadowing, etc.

TLDR: Just some (somewhat disjointed) thoughts on the six trebuchets the slavers are using to besiege Meereen. Current Status:

  1. The Ghost of Astaphor (Destroyed by the Mother's Men)
  2. The Harridan (Attacked by Barristan and Co.)
  3. The Harpy's Daughter (Unsullied are advancing on it)
  4. The Wicked Sister (Slaver's fear Barristan will attack it after the Harridan)
  5. Mazdhan's Fist (no named mention in the Battle yet, likely mentioned in TWoW, Tyrion I that only exists in summary)
  6. Dragonbreaker (no named mention in the Battle yet, likely mentioned in TWoW, Tyrion I that only exists in summary)
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u/LChris24 — 15 days ago
▲ 11 r/asoiaf

>Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly. -ADWD, The Kingbreaker

Background

In this post, I thought it would be interesting to discuss the role that Daario Naharis (Daenerys' paramour) might play in The Winds of Winter. He is currently one of the hostages held by the Slaver Alliance but the Second Sons will seemingly attempt to free them.

Meta (So Spake Martins, Character History, Changes, etc.)

The first mention of Daario occurred in an SSM prior to the release of ASoS:

>GRRM: New characters in ASOS include...hmmm... the Queen of Thorns, the Magnar of Thenn, Tormund Giantsbane, Ser Garlan Tyrell, Queen Margaery's cousins, the sellswords Daario Naharis, Brown Ben Plumm, and Mero the Titan's Bastard, the singer Tom o' Sevens, the outlaws Lem Lemoncloak, Jack-Be-Lucky, and Anguy the archer, the black brothers Small Paul, Satin, Owen the Oaf, and Sweet Donnel Hill, a Dornish paramour named Ellaria Sand... many more... -SSM, Shields of the North: 1 June 2000

I will also note some changes to Dany's plotline as she originally dreams of Daario in the June 2004 draft:

>Her bedchamber was as dark and hot as Drogon's flame, and she found herself tossing and twisting beneath the coverlets. When at last she slipped into a restless half-sleep she dreamed that Daario was kissing her... only his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair wild and dissheveled, and the bedclothes all atangle.
"My queen?" said a soft voice in the darkness. Dany flinched, imagining pale skin, blue lips, a twisted blade.
"Who is there?"
"Only Missandei."

If interested: Dead Branches in the Garden: Abandoned/Changed Plotlines of Ice & Fire

Hostage of the Slavers

Daario is currently one of the hostages that were sent over to the Slaver Alliance:

>Dany had sworn that no harm would come to the seven envoys and commanders, though that had not been enough for the Yunkai'i. They had required hostages of her as well. To balance the three Yunkish nobles and four sellsword captains, Meereen sent seven of its own out to the siege camp: Hizdahr's sister, two of his cousins, Dany's bloodrider Jhogo, her admiral Groleo, the Unsullied captain Hero, and Daario Naharis. -ADWD, Daenerys VIII

If interested: The Hostages of the Slaver Alliance

The Second Sons

The Second Sons are seemingly going to attempt to free the hostages:

>“We do not want to be fighting for the slavers when Daenerys returns… and she will, make no mistake. Strike now and strike hard, and the queen will not forget it. Find her hostages and free them. And I will swear on the honor of my house and home that this was Brown Ben’s plan from the beginning.”
...
“All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys.” Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. “We have always been the queen’s men,” announced Brown Ben Plumm. “Rejoining the Yunkai’i was just a plot.” -TWOW, Tyrion I

If interested: The Battle of Fire: The Second Sons

The Stormcrows

The Stormcrows are now led by Jokin and the Widower:

>The Stormcrows were represented by two seasoned sellswords, an archer named Jokin and the scarred and sour axeman known simply as the Widower. The two of them had assumed joint command of the company in the absence of Daario Naharis. Most of the queen's khalasar had gone with Aggo and Rakharo to search for her on the Dothraki sea, but the squinty, bowlegged jaqqa rhan Rommo was there to speak for the riders who remained. -ADWD, The Queensguard

who ask about Daario in Barristan's first chapter of TWoW:

>“And if we come upon the captain?” asked the Widower. Daario Naharis. “Give him a sword and follow him.” Though Barristan Selmy had little love and less trust for the queen’s paramour, he did not doubt his courage, nor his skill at arms. And if he should die heroically in battle, so much the better. “If there are no further questions, go back to your men and say a prayer to whatever god you believe in. Dawn will be on us soon.” -TWoW, Barristan I

If interested: The New Commander if Ser Grandfather Dies During the Battle of Fire...

Daenerys

>“Daario calls you Ser Grandfather,” Skahaz reminded him. “I will not say what he calls me. If you and I were the hostages, would he risk his skin for us?”
Not likely, he thought, but he said, “He might.”
“Daario might piss on us if we were burning. Elsewise do not look to him for help. Let the Stormcrows choose another captain, one who knows his place. If the queen does not return, the world will be one sellsword short. Who will grieve?”
“And when she does return?”
“She will weep and tear her hair and curse the Yunkai’i. Not us. No blood on our hands. You can comfort her. Tell her some tale of the old days, she likes those. Poor Daario, her brave captain … she will never forget him, no … but better for all of us if he is dead, yes? Better for Daenerys too.”
Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.
Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly. “There is still Jhogo,” Ser Barristan said. “Him, and Hero. Both precious to Her Grace.”

but it should be noted she is still thinking on him as of her last chapter:

>She still clung to the hope that someone would come after her. Ser Barristan might come seeking her; he was the first of her Queensguard, sworn to defend her life with his own. And her bloodriders were no strangers to the Dothraki sea, and their lives were bound to her own. Her husband, the noble Hizdahr zo Loraq, might dispatch searchers. And Daario … Dany pictured him riding toward her through the tall grass, smiling, his golden tooth gleaming with the last light of the setting sun.
Only Daario had been given to the Yunkai'i, a hostage to ensure no harm came to the Yunkish captains. Daario and Hero, Jhogo and Groleo, and three of Hizdahr's kin. By now, surely, all of her hostages would have been released. But …
She wondered if her captain's blades still hung upon the wall beside her bed, waiting for Daario to return and claim them. "I will leave my girls with you," he had said. "Keep them safe for me, beloved." And she wondered how much the Yunkai'i knew about what her captain meant to her. She had asked Ser Barristan that question the afternoon the hostages went forth. "They will have heard the talk," he had replied. "Naharis may even have boasted of Your Grace's … of your great … regard … for him. If you will forgive my saying so, modesty is not one of the captain's virtues. He takes great pride in his … his swordsmanship."
He boasts of bedding me, you mean. But Daario would not have been so foolish as to make such a boast amongst her enemies. It makes no matter. By now the Yunkai'i will be marching home. That was why she had done all that she had done. For peace. -ADWD, Daenerys X

Final Thoughts/Next Steps

  • Brown Ben/Daario Drama

With the Second Sons seemingly attempting to rescue the hostages, it should be noted that Daario could potentially hold a grudge due to them switching sides before:

>The Second Sons were represented too. If Daario were here, this meal would end in blood. No promised peace could ever have persuaded her captain to permit Brown Ben Plumm to stroll back into Meereen and leave alive. -ADWD, Daenerys VIII

  • Daenerys Desires

While Dany understands what Daario is, it doesn't mean she can stay away. It will be interesting to see what happens if he runs into Victarion, etc.

>He will be safer as a hostage. My captain was not made for peace. Dany could not risk his cutting down Brown Ben Plumm, making mock of Hizdahr before the court, provoking the Yunkai'i, or otherwise upsetting the agreement that she had given up so much to win. Daario was war and woe. Henceforth, she must keep him out of her bed, out of her heart, and out of her. If he did not betray her, he would master her. She did not know which of those she feared the most. -ADWD, Daenerys VIII

  • The Stormcrows in TWoW

One thing that Barristan worries about is how the Stormcrows will behave without Daario:

>She loves Daario. He had seen it in her eyes when she looked at him, heard it in her voice when she spoke of him. “… Daario is vain and rash, but he is dear to Her Grace. He must be rescued, before his Stormcrows decide to take matters into their own hands. It can be done. I once brought the queen’s father safely out of Duskendale, where he was being held captive by a rebel lord, but …”

which is why he plans Daario's rescue:

>“… you could never hope to pass unnoticed amongst the Yunkai’i. Every man of them knows your face by now.”
I could hide my face, like you, thought Selmy, but he knew the Shavepate was right. Duskendale had been a lifetime ago. He was too old for such heroics. “Then we must needs find some other way. Some other rescuer. Someone known to the Yunkishmen, whose presence in their camp might go unnoticed …”

but the furthest along information we get on the Stormcrows is from TWoW, Barristan II (only available in bullet point):

> - His gut feels twisted from nervousness as he rides through the gates. He knows that the feeling will go away when time slows down in the chaos of battle. Dany’s horse is easily outpacing the lads and the rest of the cavalry; Barristan is pleased because he intends to outrun the Widower and strike the first blow. The Yunkai’i are totally unprepared and Barristan closes in on the Harridan, the largest of the trebuchets. The stormcrows take up the cry, “Daario!” and “Stormcrows, fly!” Barristan thinks that he will never again doubt the valor of sellswords.

> - There are only thirty yards between the horse and the Yunkai’i legions by the time any defense is mounted. The air fills with arrows. A squire for the stormcrows is killed, and a bolt pierces Barristan’s shield. There are three horn blasts and the pitfighters emerge from the gate behind them.

If interested: TWoW Barristan II: A Combination of Fan Summaries, Etc.

TLDR: Just some brief thoughts on Daario Naharis' place in the early portions of TWoW.

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u/LChris24 — 16 days ago
▲ 5 r/asoiaf

>Something in his tone reminded her of Viserys. Dany turned on him angrily. "The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike." -AGOT, Daenerys VII

Background

In this post I thought it would be interesting to look at the Dothraki Sea plotline ("to go forward, you must go back") that is going to happen in TWoW. While I 100% think that Dany returns to Vaes Dothrak, etc. something has always stood out to me and that is that not only is Dany right next to Drogo when the Dothraki warriors arrive, but they have just scared a group of men/horses and killed/started eating a horse. Just wanted to explore this a bit.

If interested: To Go Forward You Must Go Back

The Mother of Mountains/Crones

We are introduced to them and the customs such as no steel:

>A small army of slaves had gone ahead to prepare for Khal Drogo's arrival. As each rider swung down from his saddle, he unbelted his arakh and handed it to a waiting slave, and any other weapons he carried as well. Even Khal Drogo himself was not exempt. Ser Jorah had explained that it was forbidden to carry a blade in Vaes Dothrak, or to shed a free man's blood. Even warring khalasars put aside their feuds and shared meat and mead together when they were in sight of the Mother of Mountains. In this place, the crones of the dosh khaleen had decreed, all Dothraki were one blood, one khalasar, one herd. -AGOT, Daenerys IV
and:
The wild stallion's heart was all muscle, and Dany had to worry it with her teeth and chew each mouthful a long time. No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains; she had to rip the heart apart with teeth and nails. Her stomach roiled and heaved, yet she kept on, her face smeared with the heartsblood that sometimes seemed to explode against her lips.- AGOT, Daenerys V

and also how the khaleesi must join them once their khal is dead:

>The name was still ringing in her ears as Khal Drogo led her from the pit. His bloodriders fell in behind them. A procession followed them out onto the godsway, the broad grassy road that ran through the heart of Vaes Dothrak, from the horse gate to the Mother of Mountains. The crones of the dosh khaleen came first, with their eunuchs and slaves. Some supported themselves with tall carved staffs as they struggled along on ancient, shaking legs, while others walked as proud as any horselord. Each of the old women had been a khaleesi once. When their lord husbands died and a new khal took his place at the front of his riders, with a new khaleesi mounted beside him, they were sent here, to reign over the vast Dothraki nation. Even the mightiest of khals bowed to the wisdom and authority of the dosh khaleen. -AGOT, Daenerys V

If interested: The Dosh Khaleen of Westeros: Wise Women Behind the Scenes

Dany's Thoughts on Returning

This is something that is constantly repeated in the series as Dany thinks on it to begin with:

>Still, it gave Dany the shivers to think that one day she might be sent to join them, whether she willed it or no. -AGOT, Daenerys V

and:

>was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future? -AGOT, Daenerys VI

and:

>If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget. -AGOT, Daenerys VI

and with Drogo's death, Rakharo states what he will do:

>"You are khaleesi," Rakharo said, taking the arakh. "I shall ride at your side to Vaes Dothrak beneath the Mother of Mountains, and keep you safe from harm until you take your place with the crones of the dosh khaleen. No more can I promise." -AGOT, Daenerys X

and Jorah arguing that she need not do it:

>"My … queen," Ser Jorah said, going to one knee. "My sword that was his is yours, Daenerys. And my heart as well, that never belonged to your brother. I am only a knight, and I have nothing to offer you but exile, but I beg you, hear me. Let Khal Drogo go. You shall not be alone. I promise you, no man shall take you to Vaes Dothrak unless you wish to go. You need not join the dosh khaleen. Come east with me. Yi Ti, Qarth, the Jade Sea, Asshai by the Shadow. We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us. Please, Khaleesi. I know what you intend. Do not. Do not." -AGOT, Daenerys X

she thinks on it further in ASoS:

>Most of the Dothraki would be against her as well. Khal Drogo's kos led khalasars of their own now, and none of them would hesitate to attack her own little band on sight, to slay and slave her people and drag Dany herself back to Vaes Dothrak to take her proper place among the withered crones of the dosh khaleen. -ASOS, Daenerys I

and when she sees a rider on the Dothraki in ADWD:

>One rider, and alone. A scout. He was one who rode before the khalasar to find the game and the good green grass, and sniff out foes wherever they might hide. If he found her there, he would kill her, rape her, or enslave her. At best, he would send her back to the crones of the dosh khaleen, where good khaleesi were supposed to go when their khals had died. -ADWD, Daenerys X

"To Go Forward You Must Go Back"

While Dany seems to think this line is with regards to returning to Mereen. I tend to think it is with regard to a return to the beginning/Dothraki Sea:

>"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." -ACOK, Daenerys V

and:

>"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." -ASOS, Daenerys III

and:

>"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—" -ADWD, Daenerys II

and:

>She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." -ADWD, Daenerys X

and:

>Dany watched him go. When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough; perhaps he smelled the rider's fear. -ADWD, Daenerys X

A Vision of a Return

While in the HotU, Dany sees a vision of the Dosh Khaleen bowing to her in Vaes Dothrak:

>Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. -ACOK, Daenerys IV

Horses & Sheep Alike

Throughout ADWD, GRRM tells us how the dragons prefer sheep/mutton:

>"Three-and-twenty, if it please Your Magnificence. With as many claims." The seneschal consulted some papers. "One calf and three goats. The rest will be sheep or lambs, no doubt."
"Three-and-twenty." Dany sighed. "My dragons have developed a prodigious taste for mutton since we began to pay the shepherds for their kills. Have these claims been proven?" -ADWD, Daenerys I

and:

>Daenerys shifted on the bench. "No man should ever fear to come to me." Some claims were false, she did not doubt, but more were genuine. Her dragons had grown too large to be content with rats and cats and dogs. The more they eat, the larger they will grow, Ser Barristan had warned her, and the larger they grow, the more they'll eat. Drogon especially ranged far afield and could easily devour a sheep a day. "Pay them for the value of their animals," she told Reznak, "but henceforth claimants must present themselves at the Temple of the Graces and swear a holy oath before the gods of Ghis." -ADWD, Daenerys I

and:

>"Have they been fed?" Ser Barristan asked.
"Aye, ser," replied the ape. "A sheep apiece."
And how long will that suffice, I wonder? As the dragons grew, so did their appetites. -ADWD, The Queensguard

and:

>"Her Grace will return when she returns," said Ser Barristan. "We have herded a thousand sheep into the Daznak's Pit, filled the Pit of Ghrazz with bullocks, and the Golden Pit with beasts that Hizdahr zo Loraq had gathered for his games." Thus far both dragons seemed to have a taste for mutton, returning to Daznak's whenever they grew hungry. -ADWD, The Queen's Hand

Unfinished Business

Dany has unfinished business with Mago, but lets look at what she swears it by:

>If I look back I am lost. "It was a cruel fate," Dany said, "yet not so cruel as Mago's will be. I promise you that, by the old gods and the new, by the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives. I swear it by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Before I am done with them, Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh." -AGOT, Daenerys IX

If interested: The Butterfly Effect and Mago

Where Does Drogo Come into Play?

I wrote all of the above just trying to show why I do think there is a return to Vaes Dothraki where Dany becomes the "stallion who mounts the world" and the dothraki become her horde. The issue I have is that she currently is with her dragon and as we remember that this is what initially saved her:

>But in the Red Waste, all her joy had turned to ashes. Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse, the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had murdered Rhaego in her womb, and Dany had smothered the empty shell of Khal Drogo with her own two hands. Afterward Drogo's great khalasar had shattered. Ko Pono named himself Khal Pono and took many riders with him, and many slaves as well. Ko Jhaqo named himself Khal Jhaqo and rode off with even more. Mago, his bloodrider, raped and murdered Eroeh, a girl Daenerys had once saved from him. Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen. -ADWD, Daenerys X

Feeding on Horses

As Khal Jhaqo arrives we should note that Dany/Drogo just scared off a scout/and attacked a party of horses/men and killed a horse:

>The carcass was too heavy for him to bear back to his lair, so Drogon consumed his kill there, tearing at the charred flesh as the grasses burned around them, the air thick with drifting smoke and the smell of burnt horsehair. Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare, burned hands. In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now? Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario … -ADWD, Daenerys X

and:

>As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon.
That was how Khal Jhaqo found her, when half a hundred mounted warriors emerged from the drifting smoke. -ADWD, Daenerys X

So What Gives?

How does a Dothraki Sea plotline happen when Dany is standing next to something way more powerful than these warriors have ever seen. Let's note the scout's initial reaction:

>He did not see her, though. The grass concealed her, and he was looking elsewhere. Dany followed his eyes, and there the shadow flew, with wings spread wide. The dragon was a mile off, and yet the scout stood frozen until his stallion began to whicker in fear. Then he woke as if from a dream, wheeled his mount about, and raced off through the tall grass at a gallop. -ADWD, Daenerys X

with this in mind, I think it would be pretty weird if the Dothraki just came up and took her captive.

  • Dany Still Isn't Completely in Control of Drogon/Drogon Flies Off

We have been shown (primarily due to his reluctance to return to Meereen) that Drogon still doesn't completely listen to her:

>Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned. The whip annoyed him more than it hurt him, she had come to see; his scales had grown harder than horn.
And no matter how far the dragon flew each day, come nightfall some instinct drew him home to Dragonstone. His home, not mine. Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely. -ADWD, Daenerys X

  • Dany Goes Back to Vaes Dothrak as a Conqueror

While I think this would ruin a lot of the potential suspense of the plotline, its possible that Dany submits these Dothraki/defeats Jhaqo and returns to Vaes Dothrak at the head of the Dothraki not as their prisoner.

  • Dany Doesn't Go Back to Vaes Dothrak

It is also possible that Dany does not in fact go back to this area and I just have all the potential foreshadowing wrong.

  • Dany Defeats These Dothraki Later Falls/Gets Captured

Khal Jhaqo is only with 50 screamers. It is possible that Dany/Drogon could kill/defeat this first set only for Dany to fall/be captured a bit later.

  • Abandoned Plotline?

In drafts of ADWD, in the Pit, instead of Dany mounting Drogon, she instead was picked up by his claws and set down on the Great Pyramid. I wonder if GRRM could use this here instead (Drogon picks up Dany and hurriedly sets her down elsewhere). This could lead to capture, etc. Just spitting out ideas, I really have no clue.

If interested: "Pretend It's a Horse": Daenerys & Drogon

TLDR: There seems to be heavy foreshadowing (at least to me) setting up a return to Vaes Dothrak for Daenerys' plotline. I've always had an issue with the idea of her being captured (since Drogon is right there).

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u/LChris24 — 17 days ago
▲ 16 r/asoiaf

Background

The discussion of who is the best fighter in the ASOIAF is one that is discussed ad nauseum. That said the underlying focus of that discussion is "who is the best swordsman in the series". In this post I thought it would be fun to have this discussion but with a twist. Who is the best fighter, with individual weapons outside of the sword, and focus on other armaments that are the primary weapon of some of the characters.

If interested: Characters Killed by Individual Weapons

Note: Obviously, the best fighter depends on the day (outside factors come in to play, etc.)

Morningstar = Ser Loras Tyrell

GRRM constantly has mentioned Ser Loras as one of the series' best fighters, and while he uses other weapons (lance/battle axe) as well, the morningstar is also mentioned/used:

>Loras was the first one through the breach when the ram broke the castle gates. He rode straight into the dragon's mouth, they say, all in white and swinging his morningstar about his head, slaying left and right." -AFFC, Cersei VIII

and:

>The king considered that, licking honey off his fingers. "When Ser Loras comes back I'm going to learn to fight with lance and sword and morningstar, the same way he does." -AFFC, Cersei IX

War Hammer = Robert Baratheon

Robert preferred a warhammer to a sword:

>Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume. -AGOT, Eddard I

and:

>Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with blunted axe or hammer. -AFFC, Cersei V

BattleAxe = Areo Hotah

>Areo Hotah did not know what to say to that. He was only a captain of guards, and still a stranger to this land and its seven-faced god, even after all these years. Serve. Obey. Protect. He had sworn those vows at six-and-ten, the day he wed his axe. Simple vows for simple men, the bearded priests had said. He had not been trained to counsel grieving princes.
...
The captain's sleeping cell adjoined his prince's. He sat upon the narrow bed and found his whetstone and oilcloth in their niche, and set to work. Keep your longaxe sharp, the bearded priests had told him, the day they branded him. He always did.
...
And he smelled the stench of burning hair as the bearded priest touched the brand to the center of his chest. The pain had been so fierce that he thought his heart might stop, yet Areo Hotah had not flinched. The hair had never grown back over the axe.
Only when both edges were sharp enough to shave with did the captain lay his ash-and-iron wife down on the bed. -AFFC, The Captain of the Guards

If interested: "The Camera that Rides" as a POV Character

Arakh = Sandoq the Shadow

I have heard it argued that Sandoq's weapon of choice was not an arakh, just a curved sword (it gets even hairier based on GRRMs definitions) but either way I just wanted an excuse to mention Sandoq (who is very underrated and likely one of the best fighters in the series regardless of weapon):

>a great curved sword with a dragonbone hilt, whose dark blade shown in the torchlight with the distinctive ripples of Valyrian steel.

If interested: Most Impressive Feat in Battle

Streetfight = Sandoq/Duncan the Tall

In a streetfight, I would give it to one of these two characters:

  • Sandoq

>It was said that he had been the victor of a hundred fights in the death pits of Meereen, that he had once torn out the throat of a foe with his teeth after his sword had shattered, that he drank the blood of the men he killed, that in the pits he had slain lions, bears, wolves and wyverns with no weapons but the stones he found upon the sands.
Such tales grow in the telling, to be sure, and we cannot know how much of this, if any, is to be believed

  • Duncan the Tall

Duncan's streetfighting abilities save him in several fights (Aerion/The LongInch):

>He could vanquish Ser Duncan the Tall, but not Dunk of Flea Bottom. The old man had taught him jousting and swordplay, but this sort of fighting he had learned earlier, in shadowy wynds and crooked alleys behind the city's winesinks. Dunk flung the battered shield away and wrenched up the visor of Aerion's helm.

If interested: Ser Duncan the Tall & Potential Primary Combatant in Each Novella

Bow

This is tough since there are so many types of bows (dragonbone is the best followed by goldenheart and then weirwood). But it does seem that some of the best bowmen in the world come from the Dornish Marches (Anguy/Balon Swann/Fletcher Dick) outside of the Summer Islands:

>each of these proud vessels is known to carry a complement of deadly archers armed with goldenheart bows. To this day, the bowmen (and women) of the Summer Isles are esteemed the finest in the world. Nor can their bows be matched by common bows, for the princes of the isles have forbidden the export of goldenheart wood since the Slavers' Wars; only bows of dragonbone are known to surpass them, and those are exceedingly rare.

If interested: All Aboard!: The Journey of the Cinnamon Wind

TLDR: Just some thoughts on who some of the better fighters are when we take swords out of the equation.

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u/LChris24 — 18 days ago