u/IndividualFarmer9917

Okay hear me out. Every simplification of this problem removes one or more factors, and it’s USUALLY the fact that pushing the red button measurably increases the risk that blue dies. If you were to be one of 2 people to lift a table, of course it matters if you lift it. But when it’s billions, suddenly our brains shut off. So try this one.

Would you drive drunk if you were in an indestructible car and couldn’t be hurt by any accidents during the drive?

You can drunk drive in this hypothetical without increasing the risk to yourself.

You cannot drunk drive in this hypothetical without increasing the risk to others.

Just like you cannot press the red button without increasing risk to those that pressed blue.

Removing the risk to others fundamentally changes the question, which is why most logic is flawed.

So would you drive drunk in an indestructible car if it meant you couldn’t be hurt at all? Try to answer without giving random passerby immunity for no reason or the ability to matrix dodge.

If you think getting arrested is a problem, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THE BLUE VOTERS ARE GONNA DO TO THE RED VOTERS IF THEY WIN? You just got sorted into the most logically justifiable group to hate/punish, and helped create an organized majority that you don’t belong to. That’s a lil worse than jail time. People do awful things to people for much less justifiable reasons.

Or they all die, and you’re left with everyone who doesn’t believe that they have responsibility for their actions. Sweet, you’re alive. Do you think a lot of doctors don’t give a shit about that kind of stuff? The ones that take an oath starting “first, do no harm?” Hope you don’t get sick!

Logically how can red make sense?

“But the blue voters could have just not voted blue”

Yeah but they did so using sound logic, and not expecting to die. And then you made a separate decision to increase the risk of them dying to save yourself.

It’s no different to “they shouldn’t have been on the road near me”. They knew going outside was a risk, but they still did it expecting to be safe, which was not an unreasonable expectation, and you made that less likely.

Generally we call those people criminals.

I made a comment (I think in this sub?) that I feel really nailed what I believe about free will. That said I’m not very formally educated and I’m having trouble understanding what exactly this belief is, if you were to give it a label. Is it determinism, or does that require a few more layers of thought?

Any insight on what this is called so I can explore more would be amazing!! Also if there’s any blind spots or contradictions please call me out!

Comment:

“Of course we can” [make choices to alter your brain]

Yes, but when can you? As a baby? No, you don’t have the ability yet. As a toddler? Maybe in some ways. But any choice you make to alter your brain uses your brain. The one that already exists. The one that is shaped to be able to make a particular decision based on the beliefs of its owner. When do you step in to shape your brain, without that decision being directly shaped and made by the way your brain already is when you make that decision? The outcome of your “choice” will further shape your brain in the way you “chose”, but when did you choose in a way that couldn’t be directly traced to the brain you were born with and the following experiences?

You might be the type of person to choose to learn a new language, but only because of the brain you were born with, and the shaping afterwards that you couldn’t directly control except by making choices based on the shaping prior.

“If you had no control over your thoughts, how do you think you ever accomplish any task?”

I can control my thoughts moment to moment, but I do so because of my brain. The one that I was born with, and that was shaped by experiences I could not control. I’m the type of person to think about gardening, but that’s because my brain has been shaped by experiences of gardening, not because of a choice I am actively making.

Sure, I chose to garden in the past. But when was the first time I gardened? I was probably a child. Does a child have free will? If so, when I chose to garden, I must have been interested in plants or the outdoors or something. That interest may have started much younger. Maybe the first time I went outside? I would have been a baby. Does a baby have free will? If so, when did I choose to go outside? Was it from the moment I was born? I would have made that decision with the brain determined purely by my genetics. Did I have free will then?

“You could control your thoughts to direct them to deliberating between what to have for lunch.”

Of course! But I would only do that because I was hungry, and I have prior experiences of lunch. My choice would then be based on my opinions and memories from my previous experiences. Maybe I don’t like pork chops because when I cook them they’re always dry. That’s not a choice I’m making.

“Further, brains do not come pre-programmed with every desire, belief thought and decision you’re ever going to have”.

Correct, they learn from their experiences. Experiences that started when you were a baby, before you could fully think or move. The first choice you made that shaped your brain was made by a baby. The choice was determined by a brain only shaped by genetics and other birth circumstances.

When the outcome of that choice shaped your brain, was the second choice the one that was made by you? When did you control anything?

“But it can also be shaped by countless different experiences that you DO choose!”

You can do things that influence an outcome, much like a thermostat can affect the operation of a boiler. But the world is too large and complicated for you to “choose” what you will experience. Additionally, when you do influence an outcome, you do it because of your opinions and rationale. Opinions and rationale that began forming when you were a baby. You only make decisions because of who you are at any given moment, which is a culmination of events that are either out of your control, or were controlled by something that was shaped without your control.