u/HungryChicken246

I personally find many of the arguments and discussions against the idea that the Arthashastra was a later development to be superficial. For example, here are the main arguments listed on Wikipedia:

>Small local state: the Arthashastra is intended for a small state surrounded by other small states, and not for an extensive empire.

How do they come to this conclusion? Couldn't it also mean the opposite? Chanakya post-Nanda takeover, could have borrowed earlier works meant for small states housed in the libraries of the Nanda Empire.

The extensive trade routes, forts and the sheer no. of villages taken into account for governance (Example: "There shall be set up a sthānīya (a fortress of that name) in the centre of eight hundred villages, a droṇamukha in the centre of four hundred villages, khārvātika in the centre of two hundred villages and a saṅgrahaṇa in the midst of a collection of ten villages.") might say otherwise.

>Gems and aloe from Ceylon: Hemachandra Raychaudhuri noted in 1919 that gems and aloe from Ceylon are described as pārasamudraka, "from Simhala"; were the text from Mauryan times, it would have used Tamraparni for Ceylon, not Parasamudra.

As far as we know, no “original” autograph manuscript written by Kautilya has ever been found. Like almost all texts from antiquity, the original 4th-century BCE document is lost to time. What we have are later transcription copies made centuries afterward.

So by this logic, wasn’t the very point of the Arthashastra to serve as an encyclopedic technical manual on how to run an empire? If so, why would a later scribe copying the text retain the term “Tamraparni” instead of updating it to “Simhala,” which might have been more appropriate for their own time? After all, the Arthashastra is not a religious text like the Ramayana, where preserving original names and geographical regions is often considered essential.

>Chinese silk: S. Lévi noted in 1936 that Arthashastra 2.11.114 mentions Chinese silk, Cinapatta, "originating in China (Cinabhumi). The Indian name for China is derived from the Ch'in (Qin)-dynasty, which was established in 221 BCE, post-dating the time of Chanakya and Chandragupta Maurya. This means that the Arthashastra cannot be attributed to Chanakya.

Earlier texts mention kauseya and tarpya, which many philologists identify as types of silk. If silk-like fabrics were already known in the Vedic period...

Silk was already used as a surface for writing, especially during the Warring States period (475–221 BCE). The first evidence of long-distance silk trade is the discovery of silk in the hair of an Egyptian mummy from the 21st Dynasty, c. 1070 BC. So is it really that unrealistic to assume that it would have reached India, either through direct or indirect means?

>Coral: S. Lévi also noted, in 1934, that Arthashastra 2.11.42 refers to coral imported from Alexandria. This trade flourished in the early centuries of the Common Era. There are no references in Panini and Patanjali, but plenty in sources from the early Common Era. Therefore, "the mention of Alexandrian coral in the Arthashastra is irreconcilable with the attribution of it to Canakya."

Didn't Alexander found over 70 cities named "Alexandria."?

Scholars like V.R. Ramachandra Dikshitar argue that Alasanda could refer to an Alexandria in the Paropamisadae (modern Afghanistan/Pakistan region) or a known trading post in the Persian Gulf.

So, does evidence of abscence mean abscence of evidence?

>Wine and Hunas: Arthashastra 2.25.24-25 refers to wine, with an etymology derived from the Hunas, which is impossible for a work from the 4th century BCE.

Again, the same argument: some scholars argue that “Harahuraka” is a corruption of “Harahuna,” referring to a specific branch of the Huns.

But could it also refer to the Harahuvati River in Afghanistan? The river was known to the ancient Persians as “Haraxvaiti” in Avestan and “Harahuvati” in Old Persian, which are cognate with the Rigvedic Sarasvati River (as described in its “family books”). Scholars such as Mary Boyce and Asko Parpola have identified Arachosia as a Hellenization of the name, meaning the land of the Haraxvaiti.

We know that Arachosia was ceded to Chandragupta Maurya, and that Arachosia was a well-known center for producing wine.

>Greek loan-words: the term surungā, "underground passage, tunnel," is a loanword from Hellenistic Greek surinx, which is not used as such before the 2nd century BCE. Likewise, paristoma (2.11.98), "a kind of blanket or carpet," is a loanword from Hellenistic Greek peristròma, not attested before the third century BCE.

Again, this could simply be a matter of changes in terminology by later scribes to make it easier for people to understand, by replacing older terms.

The Greeks and the Indians have been sharing borders ever since Alexander the Great invaded; the absence of this word in Greek literature doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist.

>Written documents: while the Arthashastra often refers to written documents, and treats the composition of written documents in a specific chapter, yet writing may not have existed in India when the Mauryan empire was founded.

The very fact that the Edicts of Ashoka appear so suddenly and over such a vast geography, with such a standardized script (Brahmi), is a dead giveaway that it is logically impossible for them to have been a “new” invention. Brahmi script must have undergone a long period of development on perishable materials before Ashoka decided to “immortalize” it in stone.

>Alchemy and metal-working: there are references to alchemy in the Arthashastra, which is probably a western influence. Also, the level of metal-working described in the Arthashastra does not correspond with the time of Chanakya.

Didn’t recent excavations at Zawar (Rajasthan) show that India was the first to master the distillation of zinc (a very difficult process because zinc turns to gas before it melts)?

Only more archaeological finds will tell for this one.

>Civil law: Burrow notes that "The chapter on civil law (vyavahãra) represents a state of development on the same level as that in the Yàjnavalkya-smrti , a work commonly assigned to the fourth century AD."

Seriously, what are these arguments? The Mauryan Empire was the first of its kind; of course the Arthashastra had to be sophisticated and secular to be effective in administering a large population.

In fact, many of the Edicts of Ashoka are in Aramaic and Persian, which are not seen elsewhere. This is what large empires had to do, embrace plurality.

>Sanskrit in royal edicts: Trautmann notes that Book II chapter 10 of the Arthashastra itself refers to the use of Sanskrit in royal edicts, which began in 150 CE, setting an earliest date for the text.

This again plays into the absence of evidence vs. evidence of absence debate. Wasn’t Chanakya’s Sanskrit much more similar to the Upanishads and Brahmanas that came before him, rather than the Junagadh Rock Inscription of Rudradaman I that he is referring to?

>Defensive fortications: according to Megasthenes Pataliputra was "surrounded by a wooden wall pierced by 64 gates and 570 towers." Olivelle notes that "AŚ (2.3.8–9) forbids the use of wood in defensive fortications of cities because of the obvious danger posed by fire. Yet, while Schlingloff shows that the description of fortifications in the Arthashastra is pretty accurate when compared with archaeological remains,[57] the fortications excavated at Pāṭaliputra, the capital of the Maurya empire, are made of wood," something which would have been impossible if it was the prime minister of Chandragupta had authored the Arthashastra. "The data on the construction of forts in the AŚ (2.3), therefore, must come from a period later than the Maurya."

Doesn't this prove the opposite? Chanakya argues against wood precisely because he was living in a city made of it. Verse 2.3.9 says: "On the rampart, he should not use wood, for fire lurks in it." This reads as a corrective instruction from an administrator who has seen the vulnerability of wooden fortifications and is mandating a shift to stone and brick for future constructions.

The arthashastra is meant to a manual for an Ideal state and might not reflect the social realities of his time.

>Roman dīnāra: Trautmann notes that one of the earliest texts referring to the Arthashastra, the Pancatantra, uses the word dīnāra a Roman coin not used in India before the Common Era.

No correlation, correct me if I'm wrong please.

>Punched-marked coins: chapter 12 mentions punched-marked coins, which disappeared at the end of the second century, setting the latest possible date for that text.

This is the strongest argument for the idea that the Arthashastra is contemporary, rather than the opposite.

What do you guys think?

reddit.com
u/HungryChicken246 — 13 days ago

According to chapter 12 of book 1 of the Arthashastra, here are some of the following occupations of a spy in a foreign state:

  1. A Prostitute looking for her customer.

  2. An Orphan begging on the streets.

  3. A Widow trying to re-marry.

  4. A Classmate that studies in your class.

  5. A Musician trying to please his master.

  6. A Chef that serves delicious food.

  7. A healing woman that claims to cleanse your soul.

  8. A merchant trying to sell you fruit.

  9. A blind man asking you to help him cross the road.

  10. A tribesman that offers to show you around the forest.

Whom would you trust?

u/HungryChicken246 — 14 days ago

Note: This is clearly a conjectural project mean to artistically re-imagine Mauryan armour as detailed in the Arthashastra with the help of images that are inherently anachronistic in nature.

In Book 2, Chapter 18 of Kautilya’s Arthashastra, meant for the Superintendent of the Armoury, an interesting list of armor is mentioned. It shows that elite soldiers of the Mauryan Empire were not unfamiliar with armor, including heavy armor. However, the Arthashastra itself never describes the kinds of armor it lists, so this reconstruction is based on later commentaries that provide some vague details regarding the types and materials used.

"Lohajālika,[51] paṭṭa,[52] kavaca,[53] and sūtraka[54] are varieties of armour made of iron or skins with hoofs and horns of porpoise, rhinoceros, bison, elephant or cow."

However, The commentator takes the word “loha” with each of the four words jālikā, patta, kavaca and sūtraka.

(1) Loha-Jalika:

Loha: Iron ; Jalika: Net/Mesh/Lattice

Loha-jālikā prominently features in post-Vedic texts like the Mahabharata and the Arthashastra. Many Indian historians speculate that this might be some sort of proto-chainmail, going by the literal meaning of the term. This is further supported by the fact that a similar kind of mail armor is mentioned in the Avesta, dated to around the 6th century BCE. Could this be some lost technology shared by the Indo-Iranians? Most historians dismiss this claim as nothing more than an error in translation and instead consider it to be scale armor. This is further supported by the fact that mentions of loha-jālikā in the Mahabharata closely resemble scale armor.

Here is where my speculation comes in: I believe that we need to consider both literary and material evidence. The word “jālikā” can also translate to mean “mesh” or “lattice,” which suggests that loha-jālikā could refer to some association of iron (likely scales) connected in a mesh that resembles a net-like armor, as depicted in (1). Looking at the material culture, copper rings in (2) have been excavated from the Copper Hoard Culture in Uttar Pradesh, India, dating to 2000–1500 BCE. This shows that ancient Indians had some knowledge of interlocking metal rings to form a chain.

So, loha-jālikā could very well refer to circular pieces of iron connected via a mesh of iron covering the body, which helps reconcile both the translation issue and the material evidence.

(2) Loha-Sutraka:

Loha: Iron

Sutraka: Thread/Cord

Now, this is where it gets tricky. If we go by the translation, the word “sūtraka” means either a “thread” or a “cord.” However, the commentary mentions that it provides “cover only for the hips and the waist.” Add to this the fact that the commentator associates it with iron, and it becomes difficult to reconstruct armor made solely of iron threads or cords that could provide effective protection to any part of the body.

Instead, it could either be, as shown in (3), iron threads used to fasten iron scales to a leather base, or 'threads' of iron scales meant to be tied around the waist for adequate protection.

(3) Loha-Kavaca:

Loha: Metal

Kavaca: Armour/Cuirass

The Arthashastra might very well provide us with some of the earliest instances of heavy armor being used in the subcontinent. Chanakya mentions items such as śirāstrāṇa (cover for the head), kaṇṭhatrāṇa (cover for the neck), kūrpāsa (cover for the trunk), kañcuka (a coat extending as far as the knee joints), and vāravāṇa (a coat extending as far as the heels). This indicates that the Mauryas, unlike their depictions in popular culture, were familiar with heavy scale armor, as seen in (5), (6), and (7). This is confimed by the commentator.

(4) Loha-Patta:

Loha: Iron

Patta: Band/Sheet

This is the simplest kind of scale armor employed by the Mauryans, with the commentator mentioning that it is “a coat of iron without cover for the arms,” as seen in image (7).

In fact, it is very likely that the kind of armor coat shown in image (7) might resemble the type of armor Porus wore (without protection for the shoulders) at the Battle of the Hydaspes, as mentioned by Greek sources.

(5) Non-Loha-Kavaca (Not a term mentioned in the Arthashastra):

This basically includes all types of armor that provide protection for the neck, legs, arms, and body but exclude the use of iron scales. These are constructed from the hooves and horns of elephants, rhinos, gaur, and cows, and provide ample protection.

Part 2 shall be coming soon.

u/HungryChicken246 — 18 days ago

Genuinely, if you are Hindu and are sensitive to blasphemy, please don't watch this movie. To those who are interested, here is my review of this sh1thole of a film.

Sita sings the blues is an animated movie made by Nina paley who is now a Zionist (Jai Israel /s) and Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist (feminists who believe that transgender women are not women and should be excluded from women-only spaces or advocacy).

This l0ser was ditched by her husband, so one day decided that she is going to use OUR story to project her frustration, Ramayana is supposed to be the world's greatest love story but this femcel labels it as the world's greatest 'break-up' story.

Just so that ppl don't call her pretentious for using our story as a white American, she decides to hire some 'Indians' to narrate the story (You know what kind of Indians they are).

Here is my real problem, in the beginning of the movie, it is said that this ia based on the Valmiki Ramayana but constantly throughout the movie you can observe a certain sense of snobishness in how they talk about it, like for Vanars they say "Oh... uh, this is that...this is that monkeys right? that.. uh what are they called? they.. are called vanara right?" like THE ENTIRE MOVIE is in that tone.

Like if you were to mock my beliefs do it with some passion bruh, what is this pretentiousness that I can't even remember vanars even though it is the most iconic part of Valmiki Ramayana.

And this movie is full of inaccuracies, like READ bruh, you say you have based this off Valmiki Ramayana but as expected, full Ravana glazing is going on in that movie. These guys willingly included Uttarakanda which is believed to be an interpolation, but don't they know Ravana r2ped Rambha? they still glaze him, it's insane.

The animation is h0rsesh1t, women are depicted with big b0soms and hips man, it's like they mock our sculptures & art without understanding anything about why we depict them like that, If they had actually read Valmiki Ramayana, they would know that Rama is black and is lean instead of this blue hulk that they have depicted. It's almost as if they want to use our aesthetics to make it seem that these guys are grounded and know our cultural nuances whereas in reality, it's all bs.

The music reeks of pretentiousness, wtf does Jazz fit in Ramayana bruh. Try mocking Jazz and you will have a mob of black people that will deep-fry her as$ for this.

I watched this movie thinking that there will be genuine criticisms or even mockery of Ramayana in an accurate way, but soon realized that this is nothing but pretencious feminist (not the normal kind, TERF) slop as revenge for her husband leaving her and this movie with it's depictions is borderline r@cist.

Overall, -10/10.

u/HungryChicken246 — 18 days ago

Note: This is clearly a conjectural project mean to artistically re-imagine Mauryan armour as detailed in the Arthashastra with the help of images that are inherently anachronistic in nature.

In Book 2, Chapter 18 of Kautilya’s Arthashastra, meant for the Superintendent of the Armoury, an interesting list of armor is mentioned. It shows that elite soldiers of the Mauryan Empire were not unfamiliar with armor, including heavy armor. However, the Arthashastra itself never describes the kinds of armor it lists, so this reconstruction is based on later commentaries that provide some vague details regarding the types and materials used.

"Lohajālika,[51] paṭṭa,[52] kavaca,[53] and sūtraka[54] are varieties of armour made of iron or skins with hoofs and horns of porpoise, rhinoceros, bison, elephant or cow."

However, The commentator takes the word “loha” with each of the four words jālikā, patta, kavaca and sūtraka.

(1) Loha-Jalika:

Loha: Iron ; Jalika: Net/Mesh/Lattice

Loha-jālikā prominently features in post-Vedic texts like the Mahabharata and the Arthashastra. Many Indian historians speculate that this might be some sort of proto-chainmail, going by the literal meaning of the term. This is further supported by the fact that a similar kind of mail armor is mentioned in the Avesta, dated to around the 6th century BCE. Could this be some lost technology shared by the Indo-Iranians? Most historians dismiss this claim as nothing more than an error in translation and instead consider it to be scale armor. This is further supported by the fact that mentions of loha-jālikā in the Mahabharata closely resemble scale armor.

Here is where my speculation comes in: I believe that we need to consider both literary and material evidence. The word “jālikā” can also translate to mean “mesh” or “lattice,” which suggests that loha-jālikā could refer to some association of iron (likely scales) connected in a mesh that resembles a net-like armor, as depicted in (1). Looking at the material culture, copper rings in (2) have been excavated from the Copper Hoard Culture in Uttar Pradesh, India, dating to 2000–1500 BCE. This shows that ancient Indians had some knowledge of interlocking metal rings to form a chain.

So, loha-jālikā could very well refer to circular pieces of iron connected via a mesh of iron covering the body, which helps reconcile both the translation issue and the material evidence.

(2) Loha-Sutraka:

Loha: Iron

Sutraka: Thread/Cord

Now, this is where it gets tricky. If we go by the translation, the word “sūtraka” means either a “thread” or a “cord.” However, the commentary mentions that it provides “cover only for the hips and the waist.” Add to this the fact that the commentator associates it with iron, and it becomes difficult to reconstruct armor made solely of iron threads or cords that could provide effective protection to any part of the body.

Instead, it could either be, as shown in (3), iron threads used to fasten iron scales to a leather base, or 'threads' of iron scales meant to be tied around the waist for adequate protection.

(3) Loha-Kavaca:

Loha: Metal

Kavaca: Armour/Cuirass

The Arthashastra might very well provide us with some of the earliest instances of heavy armor being used in the subcontinent. Chanakya mentions items such as śirāstrāṇa (cover for the head), kaṇṭhatrāṇa (cover for the neck), kūrpāsa (cover for the trunk), kañcuka (a coat extending as far as the knee joints), and vāravāṇa (a coat extending as far as the heels). This indicates that the Mauryas, unlike their depictions in popular culture, were familiar with heavy scale armor, as seen in (5), (6), and (7). This is confimed by the commentator.

(4) Loha-Patta:

Loha: Iron

Patta: Band/Sheet

This is the simplest kind of scale armor employed by the Mauryans, with the commentator mentioning that it is “a coat of iron without cover for the arms,” as seen in image (7).

In fact, it is very likely that the kind of armor coat shown in image (7) might resemble the type of armor Porus wore (without protection for the shoulders) at the Battle of the Hydaspes, as mentioned by Greek sources.

(5) Non-Loha-Kavaca (Not a term mentioned in the Arthashastra):

This basically includes all types of armor that provide protection for the neck, legs, arms, and body but exclude the use of iron scales. These are constructed from the hooves and horns of elephants, rhinos, gaur, and cows, and provide ample protection.

Part 2 shall be coming soon.

u/HungryChicken246 — 18 days ago

In image 1, you can see Porus being depicted by this artist. Why is it so anachronistic? This is no unified design philosophy and everything seems so tacky? For example:

(1) The kind of turban shown here would never have been worn by Porus at all. The central or side knot (shikhanda) is, I believe, a distinctly Mauryan innovation dated to around 321 BCE and later.

(2) Though bell-shaped shields have existed since the times of the IVC, these are not the kinds of shields Porus’s army would have used. The design is ripped straight from the Ajanta Caves, which are dated to the 2nd century BCE andt later.

Infact, Arrian says that, "In their left hands they carry bucklers made of undressed ox-hide, which are not so broad as those who carry them". So what is this anachrony?

(3) Those earrings appear so late that it is embarrassing that he even uses them. Those are Satavahana earrings from Andhra Pradesh, dating anywhere from 100 BCE to 100 CE.

(4) Even the necklaces are ripped straight from something the Mauryans would wear. Ashoka is seen wearing that in a relief at the Sanchi Stupa, Madhya Pradesh, dated to the 3rd century BCE. It would not have been a problem if he had depicted any other king who existed between the Mauryas, Shungas, and the Satavahanas, as their jewellery and aesthetics overlap with each other, not Porus.

(5) The same goes for the sword. Arrian mentions that “All wear a sword which is broad in the blade, but not less than three cubits in length; and this, when they engage in close fight (which they do with reluctance), they wield with both hands, to fetch a lustier blow.” The sword handle is nowhere near long enough, and the overlapping leather straps are taken straight from the Sanchi Stupa.

Now, contrast this with the second image, look at how accurate it is. But there is one small problem: rarely (in fact, never, I believe) did Sasanian soldiers wear all these things together, as you can see from the reference images I fetched. The amount of creative liberty is insane. I say, if you want to depict Indian kings in accurate attire, then do it; if you don’t have the necessary information, either embellish it like you did with the second image rather than mixing and matching completely inconsistent details. Give Porus completely Mauryan ornaments and armor instead of using unrelated Satavahana earrings just because they look exotic and creating a mishmash like this.

It’s very frustrating to see this, especially when Chanakya literally describes mail armour that covers the neck, head, waist, torso, and extends to the feet. Yet such depictions are rare, instead, we keep getting half-naked men in a loincloth all the time

u/HungryChicken246 — 19 days ago