u/Financial-Lynx-9522

One thing I absolutely loved during my reading of Fate/stay night was the power of Shirou Emiya and Archer. It’s a power that is incredibly symbolic and says a lot about the character, while also just being really cool in general.

On top of that, each route offers a different take on his abilities, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. In the Fate route, we have a Shirou who is still a beginner and struggles a lot to properly control his power on his own, but is still capable of impressive feats for a novice mage.

In UBW, we’re introduced to a Shirou who becomes more independent and starts fighting by himself, notably using Archer’s techniques and twin swords, eventually “recreating” his own version of Unlimited Blade Works.

Finally, in Heaven’s Feel, we get a Shirou who loses an arm and has Archer’s arm transplanted onto him. It’s literally a ticking time bomb that allows him physical feats he normally shouldn’t be capable of, but guarantees his death after repeated use.

So i was wondering ,a lot of people would have liked to see more routes, but if we really had gotten others, how would you have chosen to handle Shirou’s abilities in different routes while still staying consistent with his abilities ?

I'm just asking in case someone sees this, but I’d like to know if it would be possible for the mods to specify exactly why they take down posts each time. Some of my posts have been removed even though I apparently followed all the rules, and I checked multiple times to make sure I hadn’t broken any of them.

It left me a bit curious because I’m basically left completely in the dark, and it seems like there’s no real way to clearly check why a given post was removed. Thanks in advance

Well, I’m going to specifically talk about the existence of Avenger in Hollow Ataraxia, as well as my analysis of it. I want to talk about it because this is a topic that has never been officially confirmed by Kinoko Nasu, and also because I find it to be one of the most interesting concepts in the Nasuverse. So I want to warn everyone that I’ll be discussing key points of the plot: if you haven’t played the game and don’t want to be spoiled, don’t read what follows.

1. Origins

This is explained multiple times in Heaven’s Feel and in Fate/hollow ataraxia, if I remember correctly. Basically, before becoming Angra Mainyu, Angra was the most ordinary person in the world. His daily life was nothing enviable or extraordinary, but he was completely satisfied with it. He had a family, neighbors—nothing unusual.

Then one day, for no reason, his entire village decided that he was the source of all the world’s evils. He was tortured for a long time and eventually lost his mind ,anyway , it’s quite long so I won’t go into everything. But little by little, he lost all individuality, leaving behind only hatred, because that’s what he had become.

He eventually came to be glorified in a way similar to a Heroic Spirit, because despite the hatred directed at him for being “evil,” he was also the one who prevented others from being “evil” in his place. He was later summoned during the Third Holy Grail War by the Einzberns and died shortly after, without being able to do much. He then went on to corrupt the Grail.

We then arrive at the Fifth War: Bazett is tricked by Kirei, and, desperate not to die, she makes a wish. Angra grants that wish.

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2. The Angra / Shirou Case

In Hollow Ataraxia, Angra possesses Shirou, to put it simply. But I feel like there are a lot of differing interpretations on this, so I’ll try to clearly express what I understood, relying on actual dialogue and monologues from the game.

During the day, Shirou, although possessed, remains completely himself. There are no real exceptions: it’s simply a logical continuation of the Shirou from Fate/stay night, albeit extremely simplified, like much of the cast, for the needs of the game, which relies heavily on humorous scenes between different characters.

At night, however, we get a character completely different from the original Shirou: Angra Mainyu, or Avenger. This being appears to be the complete opposite of Shirou. The only trait they seem to share at first glance is sarcasm, although Avenger’s is much more overt. He is crude, seems deeply evil, kills as easily as breathing, and believes that every human should prioritize themselves above all else.

So while playing the game, one could easily come to think that Shirou and Angra are two different people, especially because of his philosophy and his relationship with Caren, for example. That’s why I’ll now go through several aspects of the character to try to reach a clear conclusion.

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3. The Conversation with Illya

Honestly, I think this is the moment in the game where almost everything is revealed at once. Not necessarily about the twist, because if the player has reached this point, the relationship between Shirou and Angra has already become obvious, but rather about the nature of their relationship and of Angra himself.

For this part, I’ll try to take certain lines and put them back into their precise context.

We are first told that the source of all the problems in the Grail War is Angra Mainyu, a “demon” who grants wishes, as everyone already knew.

> "Only one person in this world is a fake .

That person disguised himself as someone in this town ,and reproduced the Holy Grail War in this world "

This is an explicit confirmation of something that had become increasingly obvious: the “Shirou” of this world is not really Shirou. I’ll come back to this later, because what I’m saying can easily be confusing, so it’s not necessarily the most important point.

> "But only one person dissapears with the fourth day .They can't go to the reality that awaits on the fifth day ."

Because Angra does not belong to reality. He merely borrows Shirou’s body; his only way to live is, during these four days, through Shirou’s body.

> "This will sound strange ,but is the fake really a fake ?

No matter how similar he is to the real one ,as long as he's not real ,everything he does ..."

"No .He's a fake ,but he's certainly real .

He's not a duplicate or an identical copy.

He just becomes the real thing only during these four days ."

I think this is quite direct: we are told that Angra is both more and less than an impostor. He cannot truly be reduced to that role, because within the loop, Angra is Shirou. There is no clear distinction.

> "Yes .I said he was disguised ,but he was a formless nothing to begin with .

Nothing can't turn into something ,not can it imitate anything .

So even if he takes shape using someone's body ,he's still no more than nothing ."

Angra is nothing; he is literally emptiness. He is defined only by the role and function originally imposed on him, as well as by his essence of evil. He lost all individuality long ago.

> "Even if he possesses .... No, assimilates into some1 ,he has no influence over the host .

So even though he's a fake ....

His action are unmistakably those of the real thing "

First major revelation: until now, we thought Angra was a distinct being sharing Shirou’s body. But here we are told that Angra does not influence the host’s actions at all, and that ultimately, everything he does comes from Shirou.

> "It seems like he has his own will ,though"

"That's not the nothing will .

After being assimilated into a body with a will ,he's just deluded into thinking it's his own "

Even though Angra appears to have thoughts that differ from Shirou’s, they are in reality just a product of the body he inhabits.

Angra/Shirou then begins to question whether he truly “existed” in the first place.

> "No .I'll acknowledge you.

You are you ,Angra Mainyu .You may forget this right away but i will remember it to the end .

I will remember that you tried to bring an end to this wish through you own will ."

To me, this reinforces the idea that he can only exist through others. He needs Illya’s recognition to “exist.”

It also reminds me of UBW, with Shirou being a fake—just like Angra-Shirou—an impostor who nonetheless manages to appropriate his ideals. Here, Angra-Shirou, although supposedly just a result of Shirou’s will, still appropriates that will. He is no longer just a slave: what he created in these dreams has value, and it belongs to him as much as to Shirou.

In short, from what I understood, the two form a whole.

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4. The End of the Cycle

We’ve already explored the link between Shirou and Angra and how they became Angra-Shirou, but the ending of the game adds even more depth to solidify what we already knew.

> "It couldn't have been just the influence of the personnality i've assumed .

I'm prolly tired of this .That's all .I just felt ending it because i'm tired of it all .It has to be that ,or else ..."

This further reinforces the idea that Angra is subject to Shirou’s will, but also that he possesses a consciousness of his own that blends the two. Angra-Shirou’s sense of self includes both aspects, as shown here:

> " I might actually know your father ."

No, Angra isn’t supposed to know Kirei; the only one who could is Shirou. I don’t think I need to elaborate further.

> "See you .After i'm gone ,please go to see me again ."

"Caren ,let's meet again .Next time ,as you wished ,i shall be that much more gentlemanly ."

"Because this foul mouthed demon won't be possesing me again ."

Angra will disappear—he knows it—but the being Shirou Emiya will remain. He sees himself as Shirou Emiya and asks Caren to meet him again, as if he were the same in every detail. They are not two distinct existences, but one complete individual.

> "I'm a hero of justice ,y'see ."

"But i can't help it .That's the kind of human i became ,and that's the kind of human i've repeatedly gone through these ordinary days as "

"There never was a "real me" from the beginning, though ."

"This body ,this character ,was born by wearing the shell of Emiya Shirou .I'm nothingness to begin with .I don't have attachment or regrets .I was just a thing that couldn't think or do anything from the start ."

"That's only as long as There's a 1 .There's nothing that's born out of complète nothingness 1 uses 0 as an empty space to flow through .But if 1 doesn't exist then 0 can't become anything at all ."

"I'm grateful that i had the chance to become that warped human being ."

Angra has appropriated Shirou’s identity. The only one who would describe himself that way is Shirou, as we know. But Angra is no longer plagued by existential anxiety: he accepts what he is. Without Shirou, he is nothing; with him, he becomes someone. He cannot act or even think on his own, but Angra-Shirou can. They complete each other.

Angra is happy to have become Shirou.

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Conclusion

First of all, I would like to apologize for repeating myself a lot. Unfortunately, I’m not very good with words, but thank you for reading everything.

There’s a lot more I could have added, and I’m aware I may have said a lot of nonsense. I just wanted to talk about my favorite character, and another character I deeply care about, because they complement each other.

I could also have talked about Angra and Shirou’s dynamic with Caren, for example, but that’s a topic that deserves just as much attention and would be quite long to analyze, so I preferred not to dwell on it.

Basically, from the way I understood it, based on everything stated in the game, Angra/Shirou is an extension of Shirou’s character, extremely dependent on him. For me, saying that Angra Mainyu is an independent character would almost go against everything that is said. However, Angra does have intrinsic value as a character. Even if he depends heavily on Shirou, he does exist, and he can be analyzed without necessarily always bringing Shirou into it.

In short, I believe they should be considered as the same individual ( at least in HA). Personally, I mainly see this as a deepening of Shirou’s character—his reflections, etc.—through the introduction of one of the most magnificent characters I’ve ever seen. Together, they give rise to something extraordinary, adding merit and depth to both their individual and shared writing. I cannot separate them from one another, and my interpretation seems to be supported by the game.

If you want to correct me because I said nonsense, feel free to.

Well, I reread the church basement scene from the Fate route where Kirei Kotomine tries to make Shirou Emiya give in to his temptations, and is it just me or is Kirei projecting once again? This man is really a hypocrite no matter how you look at him, and that’s what makes his character so interesting, especially with the context we get in Heaven's Feel.

Shirou is the sole survivor of the Fuyuki fire ten years ago, where so many people died, and he’s saved by Kiritsugu Emiya, as everyone knows. On the other side, we have Kirei, a man who tried to do good his entire life, but no matter what he did, he was unable to become what he wanted. There was a gap between his desires and reality.

He eventually marries a woman, but even then he can’t bring himself to "love" her. He falls into despair and decides to kill himself, and his wife, to show him that he isn’t as hopeless as he claims, ends up committing suicide to prove that he isn’t “empty” (I’m simplifying a bit). After her death, he ends up crying because he would have wanted to kill her himself.

I’ve seen a lot of people reduce Kirei’s feelings to the idea that he’s simply evil and felt nothing for his wife, but when I read the visual novel, it felt much more ambiguous than that. I think it’s even stated that he himself didn’t truly understand the nature of his feelings. On top of that, humans don’t possess any ultimate truth—Kirei may have the ability to understand what surrounds him, but for himself it’s probably different. He interpreted his feelings that way, but that conclusion wasn’t correct.

In any case, Kirei confronts Shirou and tells him he should suffer because he’s the one who “killed” (again, simplifying) those who died that day. He basically tells him to abandon his past, rely on the Grail, give in to his inner demons, and stop struggling. And to me, this is a pretty clear parallel to what Kirei himself ultimately does after his wife’s death (I’m not talking about Zero since it’s not canon to stay night). After her death, Kirei abandons all the efforts he once made to change and instead sinks into and embraces his twisted nature. In my opinion, he also feels some guilt over his wife’s death.

He expects Shirou to do the same—after all, they’re similar. But Shirou finds value in his past, whereas Kirei learned nothing from his. Shirou refuses to give up and refuses to discard all the efforts he’s made so far.

For Kirei, that’s impossible to comprehend. The man standing before him is an anomaly—different from him or from Kiritsugu, who both gave up when faced with adversity. Shirou is strong; no matter what happens, he keeps moving forward and never gives up (as shown in the Fate route, Unlimited Blade Works, Heaven’s Feel, and even Hollow Ataraxia). Kirei is irritated because he’s finally exposed—faced with his own weakness. And I think this is the only time in the entire visual novel where he explicitly says he’s irritated by Shirou.

I just wanted to quickly talk about this moment because I feel like I haven’t seen anyone discuss it when it comes to Kirei, even though it seems like an important moment for his character .I probably said a lot of nonsense, so if you want to correct me, feel free to do so.