u/DowdyShihTzu

r/mattxiv is a subreddit dedicated to Matt Bernstein, a prominent progressive LGBT influencer. Bernstein had a friendship with Contrapoints, AKA Natalie Wynn, another progressive YouTuber, but Wynn has remained controversial in some progressive spaces after her statement about Israel-Palestine.

A tweet by Wynn mocking Stalinists and Holodomor denial is posted to the subreddit, prompting some arguments:

Was the Holodomor a genocide?

• Wasn't most of the holdomor caused by a massive 3 year long drought across much of eurasia? Yeah, Stalin handled it poorly, but no one can make it rain. Israel was just literally starving people to death, via their own words.
  • No, Stalin starved people to death too. Genocide denialism is bad no matter the side.
• The historical consensus on the Holodomor is that it was not a genocide (even right wing historians agree with this). There was indeed mass death due to starvation. This does not mean that specific ethnic groups were targeted for extermination or under seige. There is an intentional effort to jacket all socialist projects with any possible evil you can think of, to prevent the working class from viewing these projects aspirationally or even neutrally. It also has a secondary effect of whitewashing fascism by comparison (e.g. "fascism is preferable to communism, because at least xyz"). Moreover I think it's actually probably the best position to be in doubt of all labels of abject evil like genocide and terrorism, until extremely strong evidence is presented.
  • You're literally a tankie posting in r/ussr bruh, you're the least objective person to weigh in on this. Show me the "consensus". Left, center, or right, there is no consensus, what the fuck are you talking about? "Parenti says Milosevic was innocent and didn't commit a genocide so clearly there's a consensus there was no genocide" - You I guess?

Was the Soviet Union bad in general?

• Soviet policy on Kazakh land pretty much caused Asharshylyk (means famine, the same meaning as Holodomor but on Kazakh land). It wasn't deliberate hate-fueled genocide (however there was mass execution of Kazakh poets, activists and writers in 1938-1939 - Moscow was paranoid of Kazakhs during Stalin's rule), but it was result of negligence and complete disregard toward nomadic livelihood and survivability, basically policy > people. Millions of people have died, and Moscow never really owned up to it. Soviet era Moscow did not fully shed its occupational past of Imperial Russia, and sometimes I really wish western communists understood that.
  • Yeah, the famine and the relocations did suck. I understand that there was a seige mentality and that led to paranoia of fascist infiltration. This is more of an explanation than it is an excuse, as we see that with a policy of robust pro-socialist intelligence networks and safeguards against foreign influence instead of a more haphazard approach is easier, less harmful, and more effective. I find it weird your comparison of Israel in the West Bank vs Russians in historically Kazakh regions. It's not remotely close to apartheid if both the Kazakh and the Russian is guaranteed housing, food, healthcare, employment, and economic and political representation within the system of governance (which is what soviet policy aimed to do). Speaking beyond basic material needs, the USSR was also remarkably culturally progressive for its time; it was able to provide political representation (via minority/ethnic SRs) and documentation of cultural history (e.g. writing in cyrillic and arabic) for many ethnic groups. The USSR practically invented affirmative action.
• I don't wanna hear this "paranoia of fascist infiltration" rhetoric. They wiped out our intellectuals who criticized the USSR for the famine, for the authoritarianism, for the poor local policies. Creatives like poets and writers, and their families were rounded up. Giving the blatant violent repression of 1938-39 an air of legitimacy because there was supposedly a "fascist threat" coming from these poets and writers is downright insulting. Their threat was that they had a head on their shoulders and dared to criticize the status quo. Is it that hard to say, "they went authoritarian af and systematically wiped out an already under-educated nation's intellectual community, which was completely unnecessary and incredibly wrong"?
  • What is your proposed policy for dealing with capitalist reactionaries who wish for counterrevolution? And fascists who wish for similar outcomes? Because when you're trying to build communism in a world status quo of capitalism, the capitalists are gonna want their money back and try to get it in any way they can. So one is required to suppress capitalists in some capacity, while also not suppressing legitimate critique for the betterment of the communist society (which is a nuanced and difficult challenge).

Which follows another argument about the viability of Marxism-Leninism

• What is your proposed policy when a state incorrectly labels a certain group of people as fascist pro-capitalist counter-revolutionaries and pursues them? You dissent? You publish a journalistic piece about it? Bzzt, all media is controlled by the state. What if being inconvenient to the ruling party in any way gets you labeled a fascist sympathizer? That so absolutely a possibility that cannot be discounted. Or do you just blindly trust the state to always be right, to never abuse the power to stay in power, to never do something that is not informed by humble desire to serve the working people and betterment of their livelihoods? That's how my parents were taught. It eroded everything, and to me this is why USSR ultimately failed as a project - it never trusted the actual proletariat to pick up the torch, instead it taught to be a subservient flock of sheep.
  • I find your attitude of disparaging all MLs as "Western communists" a bit exhausting btw. Yeah I'm a Westerner (this is reddit after all). But like... I reached the ML conclusions I did by broadening my perspectives and listening to communists today from the global south, whether it be irl, from left-wing news channels (e.g. BT news), podcasts and interviews, etc. I'd probably say that you'd more easily find Western trotskyists or demsocs than MLs as well if you somehow took a poll of all Western socialists; this is at least my anecdotal experience from living here.

Should Stalin be criticized in the current political climate?

• What’s your take on Stalin’s mass deportation of Koreans?
  • Stop asking gotcha questions. Stop punching left. Matt has been talking about this toxic behavior all week and how harmful it is. Tankies being annoying online is not a real problem- Stalin is dead. fascism is thriving. We need allies.

This take has...mixed reactions within the community.

Stalinists have variously told me I’ll “get the wall” for being the wrong kind of communist, that I should be institutionalized for experiencing same sex attraction (or worse), and that my trans friends are the product of “bourgeoisie decadence” and “social contagion.” Pushing back on retrograde social conservatism (not to mention sheer, abject bloodlust) is about the furthest thing I can imagine from “punching left” lmfao

• You don't know if this person's not also a leftist, why are you accusing them of punching left? I'm an anarchist, and Stalinists can eat shit. That doesn't mean I'm punching left, I'm just punching authoritarians.
  • “Why can’t I bring up right wing talking points over a deleted comment I didn’t even read” ☹️“I don’t know what they said I just really wanna push right wing talking points” ☹️ “ppl to the left of me annoy me online and I need to get on my my soapbox”☹️ “why is no one discussing the evils of Stalin right now??” You made up a whole argument in your head to shove at me. Stfu Stalin ain’t alive let alone running for office. No one gives a shit about your, or anyone else’s, Stalin hot takes. Sorry ya got blocked cry harder about your imaginary argument with your imaginary tankies. Take the hint… and maybe a nap- you seem cranky. I’m done.

Another argument arises over Stalinism, with the same user arguing for their acceptance:

1. Just taking this opportunity to stress how much I cannot stand tankies. 🙏
2. Matt has been trying to get y’all off this weird soapbox all week 😭 like ok… and? Which tankie policy is currently affecting your life in any way? Which tankie politician is hurting you? This isn’t a real problem
3. Lol, girl. “This flavor of extremism doesn’t directly harm ~me~ yet so i think we should all just never mention it” is a silly-ass take.
4. If you think Matt has silly ass takes… leave. idk man… this is his community we’re discussing his podcast
5. Babe, I am a fan. Calling on people to not “punch left” means stop dunking on people who are advocating for social justice, socialism and against American warmongering and imperialism. It doesn’t mean we need to protect a faction of pro-genocidal racists and colonialist authoritarians. Overlooking that shit because you prioritize numbers over any basic values or morality is how you end up with your own MAGA.

Finally, a Marxist-Leninist takes offense at being labeled a tankie, dismissing the Holodomor and Uyghurs as "CIA topics." A strident argument ensues, one where Taiwan is compared to Israel.

1. Leave the left bashing to the reactionaries
2. Please. You might as well yell at people not to criticize Carlo Strenger, JK Rowling and John Wayne Gacy because it’s “left-bashing.” Sorry, but you’re allowed to criticize immoral people. They don’t need your protecting.
3. Left Bashing is attacking viewpoints left of yourself. It is unproductive, especially in the current political climate, to go after "tankies" when this is a political faction with zero institutional motion. Furthermore, Marxist Leninists, who you call Tankies, have long been at the forefront of civil and economic liberation movements, wayyyy before they ever caught wind in the popular consciousness.
4. Tankies are a group that either deny or actively support multiple genocides, colonialism and oppression, while championing capitalist, deeply classist and elitist systems (despite how much they claim to love communism). I fully agree that most of the liberal community in the US currently is actually centrist, or even conservative, and that we don’t have any key players actually representing leftism. But people forget that, on any spectrum, there are two extremes. Tankies are just the left’s brand of ultra-conservatism; denying racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, human rights abuses, and propping up wealthy countries and leaders becoming rich off the oppression of their people.
5. Condescension only works if you have the slightest clue of what you're talking about, poppet. You're parroting horseshoe theory, which is an absolute dog whistle for having zero fucking idea what actual Marxism-Leninism is or what MLs actually believe. You are drinking the imperial Kool Aid. I mean honestly, claiming tankies, far left MLs, champion capitalism is just so farcical that I'm not sure we can even have a discussion here. I'm SO curious which genocides, colonial projects, and oppressive structures you're claiming MLs support. If you say Holodomor or mention the Uyghers, you are an actual CIA intern.
6. You're making up a boogeyman that haunts actual leftists. The Chinese reeducation of the Uygher people was a cultural genocide, not a capital G Genocide. Not worth defending, but also not to be made into something it isn't. I challenge you to find sources backing your Genocide claims that do not lead back to CIA organizations pulling numbers and events out of their asses. Tibet was a slave state prior to the PRC. I'm going to go ahead and assume you don't support slavery, so I appreciate your support of the Chinese liberation of the Tibetan serfdom. Taiwan is not dissimilar to Israel in that it is a far right hyper capitalist ethnostate that trains far right counterrevolutionary forces worldwide on behalf of US interests. Taiwan has been doing Abu Ghraib type shit since the 70s and hasn't stopped.
7. lol, NOT A CAPITAL G GENOCIDE! A little g genocide! Again - you’re a perfect illustration. Persons identified as tankies hold to the following ideologies: North Korea is actually a communist utopia. China and Russia WOULD totally actually be communist right now if it weren’t for the western world standing in their way, dagnabbit. Any evidence that points to any ill conduct or human rights abuses by these countries is either CIA propaganda OR, if you really push them into a corner and they can no longer to deny an atrocity’s existence, it was entirely excusable (ie: the Uyghur people are infiltrated with terrorists so China had no choice - which reveals that their Israel-Palestine stance has far less to do with the treatment and rights of the Palestinian people than it does wanting to see a western power fall. Tibet was actually an entire nation of pedophiles and the people were being starved - China only rode in an invaded to ~heroically liberate them~.). A strong military should be kept and used liberally to quell all dissent. Any actions taken by communist figures like Mao or Stalin absolutely cannot be critiqued, they were only doing what they had to do to usher in utopia for the people. Any power that is in any way Anti-American cannot be criticized, because the were only doing what they had to do to fight the good fight against American imperialism - even if that means engaging in imperialism themselves. Anyone who does not fall in line with these beliefs is the enemy. Come on man, you can’t have really spent this long getting on my case about being anti-tankie while not actually knowing who the term describes 😂😩 could’ve done a goddamn google search first, bro.
8. Yeah you're hopeless. Thanks for wasting my time. Have fun continuing to uphold the status quo and never questioning your imperial propagandization.