u/Cool-Medicine-8222

How does Christianity claim to be Objectively True?

How does Christianity claim to be Objectively True?

Summary

Something that has puzzled me for a long time is that Christianity claims to be objectively true, that it truly has exclusive access to god and the means into heaven. It also claims to be historically true, and by implication, all the events in the New Testament must also be true, objectively true, in fact, since history is inviolate.

However, there a serious problems with the chain of custody regarding how such truths have come about, beginning with Jesus' own claims and ending with a religion with 30,000 Churches, denominations, sub-groups that are unable to to prove themselves to each other.

edit: correction - it's actually 45,000 now (https://www.christianity.com/wiki/church/how-many-christian-denominations-are-there.html)

This is at the heart of why I believe that Christianity either cannot be true at all, and is certainly not objective, or it is such a tangled mess that no one group can claim to be the one and only true version of Christianity.

ADDED:

  • Being objectively true means that it is true whether or not someone believed in it or not.
  • Being subjectively true means that it is true for a particular person depending on his experiences, prejudices, education, values or perspective.

Subjective all the way down

At every point of Christianity, there is a flawed human involved, all the way to Jesus' original claims. This subjectivity strikes at the heart of Christianity's claims to being the true interpretation of the true scripture that accurately represents the true path to heaven. Christian apologists like to claim they hold to a higher objective truth, yet they are unable to be convincing about said truths outside of their specific bubbles.

The creation of the scripture is subjective from the choice of what to include or not, the translations from the originals to Greek or Latin, the further translations from that, and modernizations are subjectively determined.

It was executed by flawed humans working under auspices of a church/denomination that subjectively claims to represent divine authority.

As history marches along new ideas are constantly added (the virgin birth, the trinity's existents, the trinity's nature, ending in Mormonism). Any augmentations and embellishments to the original Jesus story (if there ever really was one) are equally suspect, for the same reasons.

Jesus' own claims of his own divinity, his gatekeeping of heaven, miracles, to the eventual suicide by Romans, also have similar flaws: being 100% human, Jesus is as flawed as any other human. Open to invention, personal power and a legacy.

That's at least good dozen individual layers that puts the authenticity into question and makes the chain of custody very problematic from the beginning. Taken with the claims of infalliability, objective reasoning, and absolute truth from many sub-branches who compete and contradict each other throughout all of history, what exactly constitutes as being true?

Philosophically bereft

The problem is not just on the chain of custody of "truth" but that there are multiple ones that compete for being the truth. It's about the lack of an agreed upon ontology (not everyone believes in Saints or even the Trinity), a lack of an agreed Epistemology (allowing anyone to claim to be the true truth, finally, this time), and bad theology that is sometimes based on bad math and bad science (which means that even indisputable facts can be misused).

Conclusion

I've tried very hard to get to the heart of how each Christian group claims to be the only true religion and the objections are:

  1. Only belief in the Nicean Creed qualifies a Christian, everyone else is false. My rebuttal is that this is just a subjective claim, with no actual proof, since the Nicean Creed is an subjective agreement as to the nature of God. However, the Arians have a different idea, as do other non-Trinitarian Christians. So this is still an unresolved issue.

  2. The nature of God and Jesus' role, which is still disputed, isn't as important as the acceptance of Jesus as the exclusive access to Heaven. My response is that if it weren't important why can't it be resolved, and how can one religion claim their rituals and specifics are more true than any other?

Both these objections prove my point, I could be talking to a Catholic or a Mormon or an Evangelical, and I would imagine they would all say the same - their version is the true one, and that the others are wrong. And the proof offered? None!

Therefore, how can any Christian claim to be objectively true? When at every level it seems to be highly subjective at every turn.

**edit 1: Clarifications ** I am not saying Christian claims and ontology are wrong, I am saying there is no epistemology to determine which competing claims are true:

  1. I am not necessarily saying everything in Christianity is wrong. I am saying there is no way to determine who is right, particularly if one puts Christianity in the context of the other Abrahamic religions, all of whom have equally robust theological arguments.

  2. I am saying Christianity clearly lacks the means to determine the truth value of anything. I know Christianity likes to think of itself as being logically sound but that is actually a very low bar. Logical arguments on flawed in a long reasoning chain, where key decisions are made subjectively or through some kind of personal, individual divine revelation, is guaranteed to produce the kinds of results we see.

  3. These long-running disagreements feel more like political disagreements, where one's personal interpretation of economics , morality and religion, are powerful motivators. This is what makes the whole enterprise of beliefs and believing largely subjective.

All this points to a chain of reasoning where subjective claims far outweigh the following objective reasons why the claims are true.

**edit 2: Scripture justifies itself **

It seems that the reason for the epistemology weakness and contradictory claims within Christianity is because of some of the scripture below:

2 Timothy 3:16 [16] All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (ESV)

Revelation 21:5–6 [5] And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” [6] And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. (ESV)

** 2 Peter 1:20** [20] knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. (ESV)

Luke 24:44 [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” (ESV)

It should be obvious that internal self-justification is a circular but more important to my specific case here, is that this is likely how Christians can justify wildly different claims, so long as it could be linked to some other scriptural claim. It's clear Jesus did this as he broke off from Judaism. It is this self-authentication without a central authority that is the root of the flaws.

u/Cool-Medicine-8222 — 5 days ago

Much of what's bad about Christianity can be laid at the feet of the the political leaders co-copting the religion from its religious leaders, and its fragementation due to its lack of a solid framework to determine what is true within the religion or not, no matter what the 'apologists' would have you believe. However, it was Jesus himself that caused a lot of the attitudes, stubbornness, othering, disrespect towards these external groups, and arrogance that some see out of some apologetic quarters.

Below is a justification that some of these behaviors come from Jesus' own attitudes and teachings which has been mimicked across history as Christianity splits itself apart using Jesus' own playbook:

Reliance of personal revelations and attestations

Jesus' own baptism is an example where his anointment isn't very well attested to.

Mark 1:10–11 : “He saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my beloved Son…’”

**John: 1:32 ** :And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Isn't very clear as to whether this was in Jesus' or John's head but it's more likely that it was since there isn't much, even in the NT regarding external witnesses.

Jesus' divinity is challenged by Judaism, certain factions of Christianity itself from the beginning in Arianism and since by the Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians and the Mormons continue the challenge first set forth by the Arians against the Trinity. And of course the Trinity itself has caused the split between the original Greek Orthodox and the Catholic branches.

These disparate views stem from Jesus' own reliance on personal revelation and personal charisma, which is insufficient evidence to non-believers and un-believers. Few actual witnesses to his miracles don't help and the missing attestations of the more public miracles (feeding of 5000 and Matthew's dead rising during the resurrection) are tell a more accurate picture as to whether they happened at all.

Gatekeeping

Jesus claimed to the one and only way that Heaven can be reached throughout the NT:

John 14:6 : "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Matthew 10:32–33 : "Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven."

These are Jesus' own statements that he is the fulfillment of the Torah as the Jew's King, (even though he actually doesn't and Christians claim that's the point of his second coming) and also for all of humanity.

However, the gatekeeping wasn't just limited to other Jews, but all of humanity:

Matthew 25:31–32 “When the Son of man shall come in his glory… before him shall be gathered all nations…” Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations…”

So not only does Jesus claim religious dominion over his own religion but also to all human religions.

In establishing himself, and his religion as being the only truth, combined with personal revelations as the primary source of said truth, Jesus has kicked off his religion on shaky ground with one unproven claim on top of another. Little wonder this has little impact on the religious establishment, and to this day, Jews reject his claims.

Exclusivity and othering

In addition to basic gatekeeping, Jesus created an in-group and out-group mentality:

Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me. Matthew 12:34 “You brood of vipers…” John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil…” Matthew 7:6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

This idea that there are external groups is bad enough but that they are to be condemned on Earth as well as the afterlife sets up the permission structure for a lot of the human misery caused in the name of the religion. This pain is caused not only to Jews during the Catholic Inquisition and throughout much of Christian history but also as each Christian sect apposed each other.

Disruption of existing religious hierarchy whilst preserving the politican one

All of this culminated in a rejection of the religious status quo:

Matthew 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men…” Matthew 21:12–13 *As Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple: “My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.” Matthew 12:6–8 “But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.” Mark 2:27–28: “The Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.”

John 18:33–36 Before Pontius Pilate: 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight…” Luke 20:25 “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.”

Inflexibility, stubbornnes, martyrdom

Jesus' conviction of being right was a black & white issue that challenged consensus but in a rigid way that we see today. This included sacrificing one's own life as an example to others.

Mark 3:1–6 Jesus heals on the Sabbath despite knowing it is provocative: “Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil?…”" Matthew 26:63–65 Before the high priest: “Tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus answers affirmatively in a way understood as blasphemous: ... “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power…” ... “He hath spoken blasphemy.”

John 10:17–18 "I lay down my life… No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.”

What we see as a result of this is some of the arrogance from some theists that just because they have reasoned themselves into a certain set of beliefs, all others are necessarily wrong. We see horrific acts of conversions and torture between Christian groups, both of whom are inflexible in their beliefs.


There's a lot here and I tried to condense other ideas but this would be good to see if the idea of Jesus' playbook is really a good one since, used against itself, has probably caused more harm than good to humanity.

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u/Cool-Medicine-8222 — 7 days ago

One thing I’ve learned through decades of debate is that every single theological argument, every apologetic, is not there to “prove” anything. They’re not even philosophical doorways into the religion. Instead they’re walls to keep people in and intellectual band-aids to fill in gaps in evidence, proof or plot holes.

It’s not productive to address them head on because you’re already buying into the hidden claims. If you notice, the trajectory of claims about god have moved from actual physical interactions with humans to outside of even space and time. Does it even make sense to talk about a non-natural universe in the first place, as impressive as it sounds, never mind the nature of it and the possible beings therein?

It’s also churlish to even use the so-called ontological argument about god when the Abrahamic religions disagree about the nature of god anyway. The trinity is still disputed in significant quarters of Christianity so there’s still doubt even what this supposed Christian godhood is supposed to be, even if the existence of such a being is addressed. Sometimes I feel it is atheists keeping these arguments alive more so than Christians themselves!

When I see atheists debating the Ontological Argument or Kalam's Cosmological Argument and other "Arguments", from a perspective of "proving Christianity wrong", they are arguing from inside the religion, accepting the unspoken cultural commonality we have such as souls, heaven, angels and demons, etc.

Instead, we should let Christians bring up their own arguments and debate there. Assuming there are still any left here!

Atheists, imho, should be debating religion on stronger grounds - such as Christianity's claims to truth is unfounded, the effectiveness of religion in a modern age, moral outcomes, and religion's role in society.

Thoughts?

PS: Look my other thread on The Problems of Christianity begin with John 14:6 to see what I'm getting at.

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u/Cool-Medicine-8222 — 11 days ago

Christianity suffers from several foundational problems leading from Jesus' own teachings. These problems explain the fragmentation of the religion, the lack of epistemological, ontological and moral consistency and why it is hard to debate against. Here we discuss how Christianity's gatekeeping is its strength but ultimately why it fails.

Jesus said it several times himself, most famously in John 14:6

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This gatekeeping of Heaven is the root of Christianity's success since it establishes a single Earthly Authority and guarantees a central authority. It is a strong idea that is convincing as a tool for proselytizing and allows believers to generate reasonings for themselves launching a whole industry of apologists.

However, as with all religions and all theological arguments, it isn't backed by any evidence. Thus early Christianity went through many revisions to even define its own god - the Trinity and its nature. This led to a lot of Christians killing each over as to who is right and when the killing stopped, schisms leading to the three major denominations of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches. And Protestantism leading to the thousands of denominations we see today.

Each branch clings to their own interpretation being "true" and all others "false"; and because no one has proof or strong arguments, it becomes a battle of blood and political will to survive. This exposes Christianity as a subjective system that on the surface looks as if it is based on facts and reasoning but ultimately a system that can't even convince its own members of the truth.

Worse, Jesus' own martyrdom is mimicked by his followers, and although Christians see this as a strength with some even arguing it is a sign of truth, it is a self-defeating symptom. Although martyrdom is seen as honorable, in practice it makes Christians stubborn to counter arguments, particularly ones that aren't really fact-based and open to interpretation.

As an atheist this dilution of the core religion proves there is very little objective truth. It is clear the widely disparate ideas from the same text and the wholesale inventions that have been made points to foundational problems.

Writ-large that Judaism still exists means Jesus wasn't very convincing to begin with, and Islam's claim that Jesus was "just" a prophet, means that those outside of Christianity don't find its arguments very convincing either. Indeed, Mormonism is a religion within the walls of Christianity that used the same playbook to anoint their own leader, its own texts and its own practices.

Putting all this together, it is very hard to see how Christians can defend itself in these debates when they can't even convince its own members what's actually true.

Thoughts?

Atheists: is there really any point arguing against Christianity?

Christians: how do you see other denominations?

Others: how does Christianity fit with your world views?

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u/Cool-Medicine-8222 — 14 days ago